What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

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DCHindley
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by DCHindley »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:22 pmI can't recall my use of "revilers" of White but I do know my memory too often lies to me.
Perhaps ... <drumroll> ... it was my own color commentary. :eek:

DCH
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DCHindley
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by DCHindley »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:22 pm But [have] you have no response to the Evans' passage in which he indicates that White himself in at least one instance retreated from the position that was the primary point of your OP?)
I think I might have already done this before, but probably a good time ago. I do remember responding to a charge that White's approach opened the door to Holocaust denier nonsense. Now I was motivated by that one, simply because, as a child, I saw a stack of original photos of corpses, apparently at a death camp. They were very similar to the ones that can be seen on documentaries and newsreels and such.

They appeared to be more than just photographic prints because many still possessed fragments of the apparatus they used to use to make prints directly from the film frames used by the cameras (unfortunately a subject I am not really knowledgeable about). There were 3-4 types of these apparatus.

I never asked my dad about these, but he did have an older brother who was killed in action in WW2 (the Battle of the Bulge) and I assumed that they came to us by way of him. I do not know what he did in the service, maybe a documentary unit, but in that particular battle (at least at Bastogne), every man including those at the "rear" were handed a rifle and made a temporary rifleman, simply because there was no longer a "rear". I'm sure a fair number of clerks, cooks, supply chain drivers and documentary photographers were casualties of that battle.

I'll try to touch on this when I can respond.

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iskander
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"Fiction" versus "History"

Post by iskander »

DCHindley wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:34 am Over on the "This may be interesting" thread, MichaelBG had stated that there *must* be a way to tell from characteristics in the text. To this I replied "Both use the same techniques."

So, I'd like to hear from members what authorities they would propose to support distinction between fiction and historical explanation.

Through the middle ages and early modern period, "history" was considered an art form and taught along with rhetoric. It was Leopold Von Ranke who sought to make it a scientific discipline based on objectivity.

This POV had prevailed for a century or so until postmodernist critics popped its bubble by declaring all narrative based on past facts as interpretations of past events based on the critics' own present understanding of things.

"What thinkest thou, Simon?"

Gotta run ...

DCH
"Fiction" versus "History"

in defence of history page 100, Richard J, Evans

" For Hayden White , researching and writing a history book is much the same as researching and writing a novel. Both are made up of elements of real human experience. Both have to meet the demands of correspondence to that experience and coherence in the way they present it. Both use language as the means of representing reality. Just like novelists, says White, prefigure their field of enquire by selecting and evaluating the evidence with the very linguistic and imaginative tools that will be used in the construction of the resulting narrative.


There is something to be said for White's observation that the great nineteen-century historians whose work he analysed in his first major book Metahistory ---Michelet, Ranke, Tocqueville, Burckhardt --had a great deal in common with their contemporaries among the novelists, like Balzac, though given the dominance of literary realism in the novel of the first half of the nineteen-century, this was hardly surprising. But White goes on to argue that the literary and linguistic forms by which historians and novelists construct their work are equally valid ways of representing the past
There is in consequence no single correct view or any event or process, he argues, but many correct views...


Thus White not only denies the possibility of objective knowledge about the past, he also claims that it is pointless to argue about it, since each version forms a close system of thought which is as valid as any other as a form of historical representation. "
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by neilgodfrey »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:10 am
I'll try to touch on this when I can respond.

DCH
It appears according to Evans that White retreated from his thesis as a universal rule in the light of the Holocaust history. I would suspect (or argue, really) that the evidence for the Holocaust is no different in kind/authenticity from a good number of other historical events, and if so, . . . . ?
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Re: "Fiction" versus "History"

Post by neilgodfrey »

iskander wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:39 am

"Fiction" versus "History"

in defence of history page 100, Richard J, Evans

" For Hayden White , researching and writing a history book is much the same as researching and writing a novel. Both are made up of elements of real human experience. Both have to meet the demands of correspondence to that experience and coherence in the way they present it. Both use language as the means of representing reality. Just like novelists, says White, prefigure their field of enquire by selecting and evaluating the evidence with the very linguistic and imaginative tools that will be used in the construction of the resulting narrative.


There is something to be said for White's observation that the great nineteen-century historians whose work he analysed in his first major book Metahistory ---Michelet, Ranke, Tocqueville, Burckhardt --had a great deal in common with their contemporaries among the novelists, like Balzac, though given the dominance of literary realism in the novel of the first half of the nineteen-century, this was hardly surprising. But White goes on to argue that the literary and linguistic forms by which historians and novelists construct their work are equally valid ways of representing the past
There is in consequence no single correct view or any event or process, he argues, but many correct views...


Thus White not only denies the possibility of objective knowledge about the past, he also claims that it is pointless to argue about it, since each version forms a close system of thought which is as valid as any other as a form of historical representation. "
I quoted the same not long ago: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3077&p=72563#p72563
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lpetrich
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by lpetrich »

Richard Carrier has been critiquing Timothy Keller's Christian-apologetic book The Reason for God, and he linked to some articles by Bible-history blogger Matthew Ferguson in his blog Kelsos (Κέλσος). That blog was named after an early critic of Xianity whose work survives only in being quoted by the early Xian theologian Origen.

I'll be discussing them here.

Ancient Historical Writing Compared to the Gospels of the New Testament | Κέλσος

He considers several features:

1. Discussion of Methodology and Sources
Ancient historical works at their beginning (or somewhere else within the body of the narrative) are often prefaced with statements from the author about the period they will be investigating, the methodology they will be using, and the types of sources they will be discussing.
Of the four canonical Gospels, only Luke came close to that with his preface where he more-or-less stated "Look at all the work that I did". Then he acted as if he had never written that preface.

That is especially apparent in places where the Gospels' authors would have to have used outside sources, like Jesus Christ's ancestors and early life.

2. Internally Addressed and Analyzed Contradictions among Traditions

For instance, Suetonius in The Twelve Caesars noted that different sources have different locations for Roman Emperor Caligula's birthplace.
Here, Suetonius acknowledges that there is a contradiction, but as a historical author he instead engages in a rigorous analysis of the various forms of evidence, ranging from the works of previous historians, to inscriptions, to personal letters, to public records, in order to get to the bottom of the discrepancy. He discusses his sources and methods to give context to the conclusions that he has reached.
There is none of that in the Gospels.

3. Authorial Presence in the Narrative
Notice in the two examples above how both Dionysius and Suetonius have active roles in the narrative, as historians who are interjecting their own voice, in order to discuss their sources and relation to events. We learn details of how Dionysius traveled to Rome and learned Latin, and how Suetonius was acquainted with Augustus’ own letters. The Gospel authors are silent about their identities and give context about their relation neither to their sources nor to the events they contain. The Gospel narratives instead read like novelistic literature, told from a camera-like perspective, which omnisciently follows around the characters with minimal methodological analysis. This third person style of narration further casts doubt on whether the Gospels’ authors are relating eyewitness experiences.
Some theologian attributed the canonical Gospels to a certain Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and that attribution stuck, despite those documents stating nothing about their authors except Luke's "Look at all the work that I did" preface.

An obvious bit of third-person-omniscient perspective is Matthew's description of Jesus Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. He was all alone there, so how did anyone find out what he did there?

4. Education Level of the Audience
... historical writing was very exclusive in antiquity. In order to fully evaluate and appreciate historical prose, one had to be educated, literate, trained in oratory, and skilled at critical thinking. Authors writing to such an audience had to demonstrate their research ability, credentials, and methodology.

...
The Gospels, in contrast, are written for a far less educated and critical audience. Far from the refined prose of Greek historical writing, the Gospels are written in a low language register in the Koine dialect.
5. Hagiography versus Biography
Rather than read as the unmitigated praise of a saint who can do no wrong, ancient historical works and historical biographies were far more critical of their subjects, whom they analyzed less one-dimensionally and more as complete persons.

...
The Gospels, in contrast, are not historical biographies but can be more aptly described as “hagiographies,” written in unquestioning praise of their messianic subject. Although the genre of Christian Lives of Saints developed after the Gospels, they can still be regarded as hagiographical in that they function as laudatory biographies, praising the subject, rather than as critical biographies.
Some people argue that the Gospels are not hagiographies because some of Jesus Christ's disciples do not come off very well in them, but that was likely done for literary effect, to make JC seem more noble.

6. Signposts about Authorial Speculation
Even when they dutifully followed the sources available, ancient historians frequently did not know the exact words spoken by individuals in famous speeches or the exact order in which things had taken place in past events. In order to provide elegant rhetorical prose, however, creative liberties had to be taken on the part of the author to retell these dialogues as they plausibly could have taken place. This does not entail direct lying on the part of the author, since the speeches were written to represent plausible versions of the original and historians would often signal that the words were approximate.
Like saying "It seems to me that..." or "He spoke words like this..." or indirect speech: "He said that he wanted to go."

By comparison, the Gospels use direct speech much more: "He said 'I want to go'." So the Gospels are much more like typical fiction writing.
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by lpetrich »

Here's more.

7. A Greater Degree of Authorial License
When I discuss how ancient historians and historical biographers are far more prone to cite their sources, note contradictions between traditions, interject authorial judgements, and signpost speculation, one impression that I do not wish to create is that they still did not take a great amount of creative liberties in fashioning their narratives. The standards for what constituted historical writing in antiquity were very different from those that are used today in professional historiography. Ancient historians like Tacitus, for example, frequently imagined the speeches given at key sections of the narrative, and likewise characterized their historical subjects in ways that are highly dramatic and conjectural.
The Gospels go much farther than that.
This is especially true in John, where Jesus engages in long discourses, distinct from the short, formulaic sayings in the Synoptic Gospels, which critical scholars have long recognized are probably not authentic words spoken by Jesus.
Isaac Asimov in the New Testament part of his Guide to the Bible mentioned the theory that John is like Plato's Dialogues. Thus, the author(s) of John put words in Jesus Christ's mouth the way that Plato put words into the mouths of Socrates. In the Nag Hammadi texts there is supposedly a gospel whose composition was caught in the act: creating a copy of another document where that document's sayings are said by Jesus Christ.

8. Independence versus Interdependence

The Gospels are surprisingly interdependent, with lots of word-for-word copying from Mark to Matthew and Luke.
The same is not true for ancient historical works. Consider just the four most extensive sources that we have for the life of the emperor Tiberius: Paterculus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Cassius Dio. All four authors obtain their material from a much broader range of sources, rather than simply copy from each other, they write in a far more diverse range of styles, and yet they independently corroborate each other’s claims.

...
For the life of Tiberius we have a wide array of independent sources corroborating each other, whereas for Jesus we have sources that are all copying and redacting one another, not providing as much independent information or research, but instead repeating and adding to growing legends.

One proviso that should be noted is that ancient historians do not always corroborate each other on every claim, and there are likewise occasionally contradictions between their narratives.
They also sometimes used shared sources.

9. Miracles at the Fringe versus the Core of the Narrative

Greco-Roman historians sometimes mention miracles, historians like Herodotus, Josephus, and Suetonius, but for the most part, their miracles are peripheral to the narrative. The Gospels' miracles are much more central, however.
Another thing that should be noted is that, while ancient historians occasionally report miracles, they often use specific grammatical constructions that distance themselves from affirming the stories and make clear that they are only reporting claims. ... The Gospels, in contrast, just throw out miracle after miracle, asking us to believe every single one of them, in a manner that presumes far less critical thinking on the part of the reader.
10. Important Characters and Events Do Not Disappear from the Narrative

Matthew Ferguson mentioned the alleged conspiracy of prefect Sejanus to overthrow Emperor Tiberius. Sejanus allegedly had several supporters in the Roman Senate. Sejanus's execution was followed by hunting down his supporters in the Senate.

MF then noted that historians Tacitus and Dio Cassius described the aftermath of Sejanus's execution, while in the Gospels, several Big Events happen without any followup. Like the marvels in Matthew's crucifixion account: a mysterious darkness, an earthquake, the Jerusalem Temple's curtain getting ripped, dead people going for walks, etc. The Jewish authorities accused JC's disciples of stealing his body, but there is no followup on that, and there is nothing on what happened to Joseph of Arimathea.

11. Even Good Historical Texts Should Not Always Be Trusted

Like Suetonius, Tacitus, and Dio Cassius claiming that Emperor Vespasian could do miraculous cures.

His conclusion:
The main point to take away from my analysis of the criteria above is that the Gospels certainly do not measure up to the high historiography and historical biographies of antiquity. Many of my Classics professors who specialize in such texts, when they read the Gospels, comment on how much more rudimentary and story-like their narratives are compared to the researched and analytical characteristics of historical writing. Even Luke only has a few brief lines at the beginning that mimic historical prose, before jumping into pure hagiography like the other Gospels.
iskander
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Re: "Fiction" versus "History"

Post by iskander »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:12 am
iskander wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:39 am

"Fiction" versus "History"

in defence of history page 100, Richard J, Evans

" For Hayden White , researching and writing a history book is much the same as researching and writing a novel. Both are made up of elements of real human experience. Both have to meet the demands of correspondence to that experience and coherence in the way they present it. Both use language as the means of representing reality. Just like novelists, says White, prefigure their field of enquire by selecting and evaluating the evidence with the very linguistic and imaginative tools that will be used in the construction of the resulting narrative.


There is something to be said for White's observation that the great nineteen-century historians whose work he analysed in his first major book Metahistory ---Michelet, Ranke, Tocqueville, Burckhardt --had a great deal in common with their contemporaries among the novelists, like Balzac, though given the dominance of literary realism in the novel of the first half of the nineteen-century, this was hardly surprising. But White goes on to argue that the literary and linguistic forms by which historians and novelists construct their work are equally valid ways of representing the past
There is in consequence no single correct view or any event or process, he argues, but many correct views...


Thus White not only denies the possibility of objective knowledge about the past, he also claims that it is pointless to argue about it, since each version forms a close system of thought which is as valid as any other as a form of historical representation. "
I quoted the same not long ago: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3077&p=72563#p72563
Sorry. I did not read your post. Did you really choose to quote the same ?

RJE page 29
One senior American historian , Clarence Atwood, confessed after the war that he had always conformed ' to the canons of my science...walked along the straight and narrow of the approved scholarship.. learned to babble the words of von Ranke...' But now he said,... ' the meaning we historians had read into events was false, cruelly false '.


History is an educated opinion.
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Re: What makes a writing "Fiction" versus "History"?

Post by iskander »

Primary and secondary sources
RJE page 93-94


" The distinction, for which the terms,' primary' and 'secondary' are most commonly used. was introduced above al by German scholars in the nineteenth century. ..

As early as 1968, Barthes charged that historian's claim to reconstruct past reality rested on a pretence. History as written by professionals was , he said, ' an inscription on the past pretending to be a likeness of it, a parade of signifiers masquerading as a collection of facts'. Objectivity was ' the product of what might be called the referential illusion'. The illusion lay in the fact that the past was only imagined to be out there, waiting to be discovered : in practice it was an empty space waiting to be filled by the historian.

Verbatim, quotations, footnote references and the like, were simply devices designed to produce what Barthes described as the ' reality effect' , tricking the reader into believing the historian's unprovable representations of the past were no more than straightforward reporting.

page 95
In history, meaning cannot be found in the past; it is merely put there, each time differently, and with equal validity by different historians. There is no necessary or consistent relation between the text of history and the texts of historians. The texts which survive from the past are as arbitrary in their signification as any other texts, and so too are the texts which use them. "

NB. History is an educated opinion
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neilgodfrey
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Re: "Fiction" versus "History"

Post by neilgodfrey »

iskander wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:35 am Sorry. I did not read your post. Did you really choose to quote the same ?
Yes. You can still read it there. :-)
iskander wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:35 am RJE page 29
One senior American historian , Clarence Atwood, confessed after the war that he had always conformed ' to the canons of my science...walked along the straight and narrow of the approved scholarship.. learned to babble the words of von Ranke...' But now he said,... ' the meaning we historians had read into events was false, cruelly false '.


History is an educated opinion.
Yet Evans is arguing that history is not merely "educated opinion". That's the point of his discussion of examples of those who had said it was -- read on to see how he addresses these arguments. His book is entitled "in DEFENCE of history" because he believes it is not simply "educated opinion" -- he is arguing against that viewpoint.
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