The Marcionite Gospel Beginning Did Not Mention '15th year'

[Secret Alias]

Again I don't know why you are so intent on derailing the discussion but just in the same way as you were 'certain' that Origen was Adamantius now you are certain that Nicodemus is the Acts of Pilate. IT IS NOT THE SAME TEXT AS EUSEBIUS KNEW. Eusebius's text was anti-Christian. This one is not.

[davidbrainerd]

Again I don't know why you are so intent on derailing the discussion but just in the same way as you were 'certain' that Origen was Adamantius now you are certain that Nicodemus is the Acts of Pilate. IT IS NOT THE SAME TEXT AS EUSEBIUS KNEW. Eusebius's text was anti-Christian. This one is not.

You just said Acts of Pilate. You didn't say an antichristian Acts of Pilate known only by an allusion in Eusebius. Make your case already and quit hiding it like a coward.

[Secret Alias]

You just said Acts of Pilate. You didn't say an antichristian Acts of Pilate known only by an allusion in Eusebius. Make your case already and quit hiding it like a coward.

I did not mention the Acts of Pilate in this thread. At the time I mentioned it the only people I care about at the forum would know the context (= crucifixion in 20/21 CE) and I wouldn't need to educate anyone (which apparently I have just done). Great news! You learned something today. I would rather however stay on track. Let's examine Clement's citation versus Luke again:

ἔτει δὲ πεντεκαιδεκάτῳ ἐπὶ Τιβερίου Καίσαρος ἐγένετο ῥῆμα κυρίου ἐπὶ Ἰωάννην τὸν Ζαχαρίου υἱόν. and again in the same (καὶ πάλιν ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ)· ἦν δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἐρχόμενος ἐπὶ τὸ βάπτισμα ὡς ἐτῶν λ (Stromata 1.21.145.3)

Ἐν ἔτει δὲ πεντεκαιδεκάτῳ τῆς ἡγεμονίας Τιβερίου Καίσαρος, ἡγεμονεύοντος Ποντίου Πιλάτου* τῆς Ἰουδαίας, καὶ τετρααρχοῦντος τῆς Γαλιλαίας Ἡρῴδου, Φιλίππου δὲ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὐτοῦ τετρααρχοῦντος τῆς Ἰτουραίας καὶ Τραχωνίτιδος χώρας, καὶ Λυσανίου τῆς Ἀβιληνῆς τετρααρχοῦντος, ἐπὶ ἀρχιερέως Ἅννα* καὶ Καϊάφα, ἐγένετο ῥῆμα Θεοῦ ἐπὶ Ἰωάννην τὸν Ζαχαρίου υἱὸν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ. καὶ ἦλθεν εἰς πᾶσαν τὴν περίχωρον τοῦ Ἰορδάνου κηρύσσων βάπτισμα μετανοίας εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, ὡς γέγραπται ἐν βίβλῳ λόγων Ἠσαΐου* τοῦ προφήτου Φωνὴ βοῶντος ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ Ἑτοιμάσατε τὴν ὁδὸν Κυρίου, εὐθείας ποιεῖτε τὰς τρίβους αὐτοῦ ... Καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν Ἰησοῦς ἀρχόμενος ὡσεὶ ἐτῶν τριάκοντα (Luke chapter 3)

Is Clement citing a shorter gospel text which resembles Luke 3:1f (albeit without , ἡγεμονεύοντος Ποντίου Πιλάτου* τῆς Ἰουδαίας, καὶ τετρααρχοῦντος τῆς Γαλιλαίας Ἡρῴδου, Φιλίππου δὲ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὐτοῦ τετρααρχοῦντος τῆς Ἰτουραίας καὶ Τραχωνίτιδος χώρας, καὶ Λυσανίου τῆς Ἀβιληνῆς τετρααρχοῦντος, ἐπὶ ἀρχιερέως Ἅννα* καὶ Καϊάφα) or is he - as you might have it 'loosely' citing canonical Luke? I would argue for the former. This would suggest to me that Luke added information from Josephus to a text resembling Clement's gospel (which is a pattern we see throughout the gospel of Luke but which dates the text to after the publication and wide-dissemination of Josephus's works).

[davidbrainerd]

You just said Acts of Pilate. You didn't say an antichristian Acts of Pilate known only by an allusion in Eusebius. Make your case already and quit hiding it like a coward.

I did not mention the Acts of Pilate in this thread.

Josephus contradicts that year as does the Acts of Pilate.

Page 2.


So now I'm going to just agree with this comment:

I am done with this thread. Bye (and take your lithium)

[Secret Alias]

Sure. But it was you who goaded me into explaining what relevance this discussion might have (possible agendas). I reluctantly gave you what you wanted. It's great to see though that the minute I show the reading has support in other sources you bail. Expected behavior.

[Secret Alias]

And to be honest I don't even see "πεντεκαιδεκάτῳ ἐπὶ Τιβερίου" as making any grammatical sense. The original had to have been ἐπὶ Τιβερίου "under Tiberius." cf. Origen Against Celsus:

Περί δε της επί Τιβερίου Καίσαρος εκλείψεως ου βασιλεύοντος και ό Ίησοΰς έ'οικεν έσταυρώσθαι

And concerning that eclipse under Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified