Gematria and Daniel 7:25 (Second Attempt)

[Secret Alias]

I think I know what caused my error in the last thread. I wrote this post while I was talking to my aunt from Vancouver and secondly the gematria website I consulted listed the passage twice. Once under 587 (which I saw and was incorrect) and, once I did the math (= 631) I notice it was also listed there http://www.billheidrick.com/works/hgm4/hg0630.htm. Not sure where the error came from.

Nevertheless I notice that the gematria site also lists 'king of Israel' (מלך ישראל) as having the same value. Is that the point? Is the whole 'until times, time and a half' a forgotten messianic reference?

‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

[Secret Alias]

What is so attractive about this suggestion (i.e. that "until a time, times and half a time" is a coded reference to the 'king of Israel') is that it has long been suggested that Daniel 7:25 is behind the Son of Man being 'delivered' into the hands of men.

In an attempt to trace some of the terminology of the passion resurrection predictions to Dan 7, Jane Schaberg proposes that the background of 9:31, specifically, παραδίδωμι, εἰς χεῖρας and μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας, is Dan 7:25: “And he shall speak words against the Most High and shall wear down the holy ones of the Most High and shall expect to change seasons and the law, and everything shall be delivered into his hands for a time and times and until half a time” (NETS)

Three elements of the Synoptic passion-resurrection predictions may be drawn from Dan 7. 25: (a) the future form of παραδίδωμι corresponding to the Hitpe'el וְיִתְיַהֲב֣וּן (MT) and/or the future indicative passive παραδοθήσεται (LXX) or δοθήσεται (Theodotion); (b) the phrase 'into the hands of'; and (c) the statement that the vindication of the Son of Man will occur 'after three days' (μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας). Obviously, the last element is an interpretation of the Danielic phrase “a time, two times and half a time,” describing the length of the little horn's hegemony. The first element occurs in 9:31 and 10:33; the second in 9:31; and the third in 8:31; 9:31 and 10:34. Second, in the predictions of resurrection (all using ἀναστήναι in Mark) Schaberg finds an allusion to Dan 12:2 where some of the faithful are raised (LXX: ἀναστήσονται; Theodotion [TH]: ἐξεγερθήσονται), whom she sees as equivalent to the saints of the Most High in chapter 7.36 Third and most obviously, she finds ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου to be an allusion to the one like a son of man of Dan 7:13, a figure to whom is applied the “predictions of the suffering of the holy ones of the Most High (7.25) and of the resurrection of the מַשְׂכִּיל and their followers (12.2).

It should also be noted that Irenaeus reports that the Marcosians apply the term מַשְׂכִּיל to themselves.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 7E34B552DF

[Secret Alias]

The fact that the resurrection DOES NOT take place after three days in the gospel should have alerted people to there being another solution to the reference.

[davidbrainerd]

The fact that the resurrection DOES NOT take place after three days in the gospel should have alerted people to there being another solution to the reference.

The solution to this is real simple. The number of days between the death and resurrection had no significance in the original (Marcionite) gospel. Yet the orthodox had to come up with a prophecy that the Messiah would raise. None exists. So they used typology. The sign of Jonah, 3 days in the fish. The timeline was already established by the earlier gospel so they fudged the 2.5 days into 3 as best they could.

[Secret Alias]

More on Schaberg's hypothesis - https://books.google.com/books?id=RQ60D ... xx&f=false

[Secret Alias]

And his ten horns are ten kings that shall arise: and after them shall arise another, who shall exceed all the former ones in wickedness and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak words against the Most High (καὶ λόγους πρὸς τὸν ὕψιστον λαλήσει), and the saints of the Most High (καὶ τοὺς ἁγίους ὑψίστου) he make obsolete (παλαιώσει), and shall think to change times and law: and shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time (καὶ δοθήσεται/παραδοθήσεται ἐν χειρὶ αὐτοῦ ἕως καιροῦ καὶ καιρῶν καὶ ἥμισυ καιροῦ). And the judgment has sat, and they shall remove his dominion to abolish it, and to destroy it utterly.

I strongly suspect the question arose in the Greek - what will be given to the 'other' king who exceeded all others in terms of wickedness? Let's suppose that a tradition knew the gematria of 'until a time, times and a half' = the king of Israel. It could be seen as an extension of the Son of Man passage that preceded it (this has been surmised independently of gematria). The germ of the idea for the Passion narrative might have been created. Indeed the connection becomes explicit when Pilate affixes the "King of Israel" sign on him (Matthew 27:42, Mark 15:32). The delivering of the king of Israel into the hands of the wicked king leads to the destruction of the Roman dominion.