Pentecost

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Kris
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Pentecost

Post by Kris »

Hello-- I am trying to debunk something that I had read a few years ago on a Christian website. A statement was made that when Josephus talked about the priests hearing voices saying-- let us depart-- from the temple during the feast of Pentecost, that that was the Holy Ghost leaving the temple-- and then this spirit descended on the Apostles, also during the feast of Pentecost.

Here is Josephus' version from Wars. Book 6 Chapter 5, Section 3:

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence".

And here is the Acts version from Acts, Chapter 2:

2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

It seems like Josephus is talking about the evening of the feast of Pentecost, after the day was done, while Acts is talking about the day of Pentecost-- so the spirit would be leaving the temple AFTER the day was done, so the argument made above would be wrong. But maybe I am wrong? I saw the Acts story occurring in 30's ad and Josephus' account occurring in the 60's ad-- but I would also like to debunk the possibility that these two events could even be connected-- does anyone know what the priests evening ministrations would be? Was Pentecost one day?

Any help or insight on this would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Kris on Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: Pentecost

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

There's a long Christian tradition of spinning that bit of the Jewish War, St Jerome placed it at the time of Jesus' Crucifixion.

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/201 ... a-miracle/

As you say, the voices weren't reported to have been heard until a generation after the Crucifixion and that year's Pentecost, presumably the one imagined in Acts.
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Pentecost

Post by spin »

Kris, when you cite materials the onus is on you to state exactly where the material comes from, giving for example book, chapter and verse(s) for a biblical quote. For Josephus is quite similar. Without the exact reference one cannot know what the fuck you are talking about because it cannot be checked and so the significance of the original is left unknown. Please, from now on, whenever you refer to a specific quote, you must supply a reference to facilitate checking the original.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Kris
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Re: Pentecost

Post by Kris »

Ok Spin. I am sorry. I will get that information and will be sure to remember the next time I post something.
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Pentecost

Post by spin »

Kris wrote:Ok Spin. I am sorry. I will get that information and will be sure to remember the next time I post something.
You've almost got it. As for Josephus, you are using the antique Whiston translation that's 250 years old. While modern translations use book no. and section (here 6.299-300), Whiston used book no., chapter and section, so you'll have to cite Book no., chapter and section: Jewish War 6.5.3.

As the report applies specifically to the time of Titus in Jerusalem, maybe your interlocutors might like to re-date the crucifixion in order to take advantage of the event. Have the crucifixion in ~70 CE.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Kris
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 5:48 am

Re: Pentecost

Post by Kris »

Paul the Uncertain,

Thanks so much for addressing my question-- it is very much appreciated. I quickly looked over your link and will review again at a more in-depth level later on. You and I sem to be on the same page!
Post Reply