The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Mon May 29, 2017 12:24 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:Unfortunately, I think that, for Mark, it is all about Jesus. With only one or two possible exceptions, I think that these people are mainly foils for his divine power.

... well, again, I wish I could follow you on this. But I do not think Mark was thinking so much in terms of the elite apostles as he was in terms of Jesus' character. I do not think Mark portrayed the disciples as abandoning Jesus in order to develop their character in any way; I think he did so in order to show how merciful Jesus is, and how in charge of the church's mission he is.
This is clearly a major difference in our views. I think that it is not about Jesus, but about how to follow Jesus, in a nutshell Mark 8:34-38.

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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by JoeWallack » Mon May 29, 2017 5:10 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:Unfortunately, I think that, for Mark, it is all about Jesus. With only one or two possible exceptions, I think that these people are mainly foils for his divine power.

... well, again, I wish I could follow you on this. But I do not think Mark was thinking so much in terms of the elite apostles as he was in terms of Jesus' character. I do not think Mark portrayed the disciples as abandoning Jesus in order to develop their character in any way; I think he did so in order to show how merciful Jesus is, and how in charge of the church's mission he is.
This is clearly a major difference in our views. I think that it is not about Jesus, but about how to follow Jesus, in a nutshell Mark 8:34-38.
JW:
Or how to not follow Jesus. If there is a lost ending of GMark I suspect it went something like this:

[The Disciples accidentally run into Jesus at Lord & Tailor in the Galillean Mall who's looking for a new linen]
  • Clerkic: Are they with you?

    Jesus: Well, they're with me but they're not "with" me.
The diechotomy between physical & spiritual "following" seems to be the key theme in GMark, if you follow me.


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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Paul the Uncertain » Tue May 30, 2017 12:22 am

Joe
The dichotomy between physical & spiritual "following" seems to be the key theme in GMark, if you follow me.
I think that's the direction. Maybe another way to say it is that Mark "is about" the many varied reactions to Jesus (realistic, whether or not historically real). The varieties of followership are an especially important set of reactions (as is overt hostility), but Mark's range isn't confined to followership (nor just to followership and hostility).

There are about 100 distinguishable characters in Mark, 60 of whom speak. That's remarkable for a work of only about 11,000 words (in Greek; in English, the well-upholstered KJV style takes about 15,000 - still short). If Mark can be fairly described as action-packed, it can just as fairly be described as character-packed.

Only one of the characters is Jesus. Everybody else is reacting to him or to Baptizer John - Herod gets to do both (and Jesus invites others to bring their assessment of John into the action, too).

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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue May 30, 2017 5:51 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:This is clearly a major difference in our views. I think that it is not about Jesus, but about how to follow Jesus, in a nutshell Mark 8:34-38.
I imagine we would both have to nuance our views away from the extremes we have set up:

1.

Ben: It is all about Jesus.
Kunigunde: You mean there is nothing about following Jesus (Mark 8.34-38)??

2.

Kunigunde: It is all about following Jesus.
Ben: You mean there is nothing about Jesus himself (Mark 4.41)??

For my part, yes, it is definitely about discipleship, about following Jesus. When I say that it is all about Jesus, what is meant is that Jesus is the kind of person who deserves a committed kind of discipleship. But I do not get the impression that Mark "cares" in any real way about the actual disciples or other followers or well-wishers in the gospel; they are just foils; what he cares about is you, the reader. Therefore, there is nothing demanding him to summon any of those people back after the resurrection, and the only reasons I have for thinking that the disciples are summoned back (in the lost ending) come straight from clues in the text, not from any perception on my part that Mark has some great love for them and must get them straightened out. So, when I say that it is all about Jesus, I am saying that it is not about anybody else in the text; it is about the reader (who — okay, okay — does make a brief appearance in the text at 13.14), but even here it is about the reader only to the extent that Mark thinks Jesus himself deserves his or her devotion, if that makes sense.
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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Charles Wilson » Tue May 30, 2017 6:33 am

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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:58 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:I imagine we would both have to nuance our views away from the extremes we have set up:

1.

Ben: It is all about Jesus.
Kunigunde: You mean there is nothing about following Jesus (Mark 8.34-38)??

2.

Kunigunde: It is all about following Jesus.
Ben: You mean there is nothing about Jesus himself (Mark 4.41)??


Agreed :)

Ben C. Smith wrote:For my part, yes, it is definitely about discipleship, about following Jesus. When I say that it is all about Jesus, what is meant is that Jesus is the kind of person who deserves a committed kind of discipleship. But I do not get the impression that Mark "cares" in any real way about the actual disciples or other followers or well-wishers in the gospel; they are just foils; what he cares about is you, the reader. Therefore, there is nothing demanding him to summon any of those people back after the resurrection, and the only reasons I have for thinking that the disciples are summoned back (in the lost ending) come straight from clues in the text, not from any perception on my part that Mark has some great love for them and must get them straightened out. So, when I say that it is all about Jesus, I am saying that it is not about anybody else in the text; it is about the reader (who — okay, okay — does make a brief appearance in the text at 13.14), but even here it is about the reader only to the extent that Mark thinks Jesus himself deserves his or her devotion, if that makes sense.
I agree that Mark's care was the reader but I would not go so far to say that "it is not about anybody else in the text". The anointing woman from Bethany may be the best example, at least as type of a supreme follower.

14:9 And truly, I say to you, wherever the gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her.”



I'm not sure that there are more arguments against an appearance to the disciples in a lost ending. It would be rather circular arguments. Therefore thanks again. It was an extremely interesting thread for me.

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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:24 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:I agree that Mark's care was the reader but I would not go so far to say that "it is not about anybody else in the text". The anointing woman from Bethany may be the best example, at least as type of a supreme follower.

14:9 And truly, I say to you, wherever the gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her.”

Heh, well, at least we are on something close to the same page when it comes to her. She is the main/only person I had in mind when I wrote the following:
Ben C. Smith wrote:With only one or two possible exceptions, I think that these people are mainly foils for his divine power.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:I'm not sure that there are more arguments against an appearance to the disciples in a lost ending. It would be rather circular arguments. Therefore thanks again. It was an extremely interesting thread for me.
You are quite welcome. Thank you for your measured responses, as usual.

Ben.
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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:53 pm

JoeWallack wrote:I think it exponentially more likely that original GMark had explicit permanent condemnation of Peter than explicit permanent restoration. This is in fact the best reason to think that the original ending of GMark was exorcised. Jesus went to Galilee before Peter returned and when Peter saw Jesus there he still did not believe he was resurrected.
I have thought a lot about this, and I am just not sure I can go with a final rejection of Peter in the lost ending, based on the clues earlier in the gospel (which I have listed elsewhere). But your notion that something scandalous may have lurked in the lost ending is a very good one; it would explain why the ending was never restored.

If I had to guess, though, as to what the scandal might have been, I would go with something having to do with the nature of the resurrection itself: something all too compatible with docetism, for example. In fact, I have argued that Luke may have known the lost ending, and Luke happens to have some quite anti-docetic stuff in his final chapter.
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Re: The ending of Mark (for Kunigunde).

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:44 pm

.
It seems that in the modern era the first serious sceptic about Ps-Mark 16:9-20 was Cardinal Thomas Cajetan (Tommaso de Vio, 1469 - 1534). Cajetan believed in a lost ending.

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