does jesus' family think that he is mental?

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james_C
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does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by james_C »

Dr Ehrman said :

The word EXESTH literally means “to stand outside of oneself.” It is a phrase comparable to the English phrase “to be out of your mind.” In other words, it means “he has gone crazy.”

And so 3:21-22 can be translated “Now when his family heard these things they came out in order to seize him, for they were saying “He is out of his mind.”

Some translators don’t like that way of putting it, not because of any grammatical or lexical issues with the Greek, but simply because they can’t get their heads around Jesus’ family members thinking that he has gone crazy. And so, to avoid the problem, they sometimes change the translation – not because of what the Greek says, but because of what they think it *ought* to say. And so they translate it as saying that his family has come to take him out of the public eye because “people were saying that ‘He is beside himself.’” (Thus the RSV, for example.)

https://ehrmanblog.org/does-marks-gospe ... gin-birth/


can i have clarification on this
Ulan
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by Ulan »

What is your exact issue? Ehrman's explanation looks spot-on here.

It also fits the image of possession (by the spirit) gMark evokes during the baptism scene.
Michael BG
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by Michael BG »

Bart Ehrman writes, “In the Greek the passage literally says that “those who were beside him came forth” in order to seize him, because they were saying, EXESTH.”

The Greek is:

“καὶ ἀκούσαντες οἱ παρ' αὐτοῦ ἐξῆλθον κρατῆσαι αὐτόν,
ἔλεγον γὰρ ὅτι ἐξέστη.”
(http://www.greekbible.com/index.php).

When I look it up in my Interline (which can be downloaded from http://www.scripture4all.org/) I translate it as (hyphens are where one Greek word is translated into more than one English word):
And hearing the-ones beside him came-out to-seize him,
they-said for that he-was-beside-himself
Ehrman does actually state that the word “family” is not in the text. He says it can be inferred from the context. The problem with this is that the context is likely to have been added by Mark.

According to the Bible hub http://biblehub.com/greek/par_3844.htm παρ' occurs 60 times and it is often translated as “with”.
davidbrainerd
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Nothing here is shocking. A KJVO would already know it all just from reading the KJV:

"And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself."

The word family is not really there. These people think he's beside himself.

Ok. Now what?
davidbrainerd
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by davidbrainerd »

I'm hoping this is a setup for arguing that verse 31 is an interpolation. We know from Ireneaus that this verse was lacking in "heretical" copies of Mark. They contained 3:32 without 3:31.
davidbrainerd
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Now that I figured out what you're saying I am very disappointed. I will do a face palm for you.
james_C wrote:Dr Ehrman said :

The word EXESTH literally means “to stand outside of oneself.” It is a phrase comparable to the English phrase “to be out of your mind.” In other words, it means “he has gone crazy.”
Right, “to stand outside of oneself" = "to be beside oneself" = temporary insanity.

Some translators don’t like that way of putting it, not because of any grammatical or lexical issues with the Greek, but simply because they can’t get their heads around Jesus’ family members thinking that he has gone crazy. And so, to avoid the problem, they sometimes change the translation – not because of what the Greek says, but because of what they think it *ought* to say. And so they translate it as saying that his family has come to take him out of the public eye because “people were saying that ‘He is beside himself.’” (Thus the RSV, for example.)
You merely show your ignorance of English here. Of course being beside yourself is temporary rather than permanent insanity, but so must be an expression that would woodenly translate to "to stand outside of oneself."

Fact is that "he is beside himself" is the best translation in English. Its closest to the Greek expression. Its clear what it means. It doesn't overstate its case like "He's crazy" which implies a permanent condition.

I'm so disappointed. :(
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidbrainerd wrote:I'm hoping this is a setup for arguing that verse 31 is an interpolation. We know from Ireneaus that this verse was lacking in "heretical" copies of Mark. They contained 3:32 without 3:31.
Where does Irenaeus say that Mark 3.31 was missing in some heretical versions?
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davidbrainerd
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:I'm hoping this is a setup for arguing that verse 31 is an interpolation. We know from Ireneaus that this verse was lacking in "heretical" copies of Mark. They contained 3:32 without 3:31.
Where does Irenaeus say that Mark 3.31 was missing in some heretical versions?
It'll take me a bit to find probably. Its where there is some discussion that the heretics only have the part that somebody told him his mother and brothers are outside and not the verse where Mark backs that anonymous man in the crowd up, thus they interpret it that the man was lying and testing Jesus by saying his mother and brothers were outside, and of course they use this to argue against his being born. I've just got to figure out exactly what search terms to use to find this again, or I'll end up having to reread all 5 books.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidbrainerd wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:I'm hoping this is a setup for arguing that verse 31 is an interpolation. We know from Ireneaus that this verse was lacking in "heretical" copies of Mark. They contained 3:32 without 3:31.
Where does Irenaeus say that Mark 3.31 was missing in some heretical versions?
It'll take me a bit to find probably. Its where there is some discussion that the heretics only have the part that somebody told him his mother and brothers are outside and not the verse where Mark backs that anonymous man in the crowd up, thus they interpret it that the man was lying and testing Jesus by saying his mother and brothers were outside, and of course they use this to argue against his being born. I've just got to figure out exactly what search terms to use to find this again, or I'll end up having to reread all 5 books.
I think, then, that it is possible you do not mean Irenaeus. You mean Epiphanius, who in Panarion 42.11.6, 17 alleges that the Marcionite gospel lacked Luke 8.19 (the Lucan parallel to Mark 3.31). I have the relevant data posted here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765#p39313.
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davidbrainerd
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Re: does jesus' family think that he is mental?

Post by davidbrainerd »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
I think, then, that it is possible you do not mean Irenaeus. You mean Epiphanius, who in Panarion 42.11.6, 17 alleges that the Marcionite gospel lacked Luke 8.19 (the Lucan parallel to Mark 3.31). I have the relevant data posted here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765#p39313.

I definately was thinking of someone included in the old Philip Schaff collection of Ante-Nicene fathers. Now Tertullian does talk about the idea the man is testing Jesus in On the Flesh of Christ ch 7 and Against Marcion 4.19 as an interpretation of Marcion and Apelles. But I still think one of the fathers in this collection made a mention of unnamed heretics and specifically copies of Mark lacking this verse, or it comes right after talk about heretics who only use Mark. So I'll have to dig for it.
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