The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

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John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

The next thing that seems curious about the Jerusalem Church is Eusebius' list of Jewish Christian bishops of Jerusalem (EH 4.5.1-4). I don't get the impression that this comes from Hegesippus either.
1. The chronology of the bishops of Jerusalem I have nowhere found preserved in writing; for tradition says that they were all short lived.

2. But I have learned this much from writings [plural], that until the siege of the Jews, which took place under Adrian, there were fifteen bishops in succession there, all of whom are said to have been of Hebrew descent, and to have received the knowledge of Christ in purity, so that they were approved by those who were able to judge of such matters, and were deemed worthy of the episcopate. For their whole church consisted then of believing Hebrews who continued from the days of the apostles until the siege which took place at this time; in which siege the Jews, having again rebelled against the Romans, were conquered after severe battles.

3. But since the bishops of the circumcision ceased at this time, it is proper to give here a list of their names from the beginning. The first, then, was James, the so-called brother of the Lord; the second, Symeon; the third, Justus; the fourth, Zacchæus; the fifth, Tobias; the sixth, Benjamin; the seventh, John; the eighth, Matthias; the ninth, Philip; the tenth, Seneca; the eleventh, Justus; the twelfth, Levi; the thirteenth, Ephres; the fourteenth, Joseph; and finally, the fifteenth, Judas.

4. These are the bishops of Jerusalem that lived between the age of the apostles and the time referred to, all of them belonging to the circumcision.
As Skarsaune notes (pg. 196):
There is obviously something wrong with this list: from the death of James (A.D. 62) until A.D. 135 (73 years) there is not room for fifteen leaders in succession; all the more so since we are told [by Hegesippus] that Symeon alone reigned into the time of Hadrian; his martyrdom may have occurred sometime ca. A.D. 100-110. This leaves the remaining thirteen "bishops" with something like two years each, and explains Eusebius' bewilderment that no dates were given in his source for the list, and his conclusion that the Jewish bishops must have been exceedingly short lived! There are other sources, however, which supplement Eusebius and may give us the clue he lacked. Some of the last twelve names on his list occur in an apocryphal Letter of James to Quadatus, in which these names are said to be the names of the elders who assisted James in leading the church. This could mean that only the first three on Eusebius' list succeeded each other as "bishops," while the last twelve were members of a presbyter circle formed on the pattern of the twelve apostles. Symeon could have reigned some forty years as leader, and after him Justus some thirty years.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IAlQT ... em&f=false
Skarsaune says in note 37 to this that he is following Bauckham in Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church pages 70-79, but those pages aren't viewable for me on Google books, so I can't check that. Nor can I find the Letter of James to Quadratus.

But the important thing is that Hegesippus does leave very little room for thirteen more bishops after Simeon since he says that Simeon ruled from c. 62 CE to the time of Trajan (not Hadrian as Skarsaune says, though he gives the right date for Trajan, c. 100-110 CE), along with Eusebius' statement that "The chronology of the bishops of Jerusalem I have nowhere found preserved in writing."
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DCHindley
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by DCHindley »

John2,

That Letter of James to Quadratus was apparently published from Armenian original in the Literary Digest volume #14 (Funk & Wagnells, 1897):
Another new find of this sort has just been published by the famous Armenian publication house in Vienna managed by the Mechithorist Brothers, namely. “The Doctrine of the Apostles, an apocryphal Book of the Canons, the Letter of James to Quadratus and the Canons of Thaddeus." It is a work of 442 pages and is edited by Dr. Darshcan, a member of the order. The volume itself brings only the Armenian originals, but Professor Vetter, of Tubingen, in the Literische Rundschau, No. 9 [published 1895, in German], gives detailed and extended translations. ... The Letter of James, here called “the Bishop of Jerusalem," has as its purpose to inquire, through Aristedes of Quadratus, who has been at Rome, what punishment the Emperor Tiberius had inflicted on the deceiving Jews, who, as even Annas and Caiaphas now confess to Pontius Pilate, had bribed the watchmen at the sepulchre of Christ, so that they should deny that Jesus had risen from the dead. Quadratus is told to send a copy of his reply to the Apostle John at Ephesus, to Simon the Rock at Antiochia, to Mark at Alexandria, and St. Paul at Thessalonica. Then too the letter speaks of the conversion of a number of prominent Jews to Christianity and of the attitude of Gamaliel awaiting the outcome of the Christian cause. The Canons of Thaddeus were intended for the city of Urha. The bishops of that city had addressed some questions to James concerning the management of the bishop’s office. These the apostle answers in agreement with the statements of “Brother Paul" in his Epistles.

Dashean’s book is written in modern Armenian.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tu85A ... navlinks_s

How's your Armenian?

A more modern approach, published the same year as your cited author, is in Jesus and First-Century Christianity in Jerusalem by Elizabeth Mary McNamer & ‎Bargil Pixner (Paulist Press, 2008, page 89)
Bishops of Jerusalem

According to Eusebius, there were thirteen bishops of Jerusalem between the death of Simon and the rebellion of 135. If this was the case, and if indeed they succeeded one another, the average length of service was a little more than two years, which makes one suspect that many met violent deaths. And in Palestine that meant crucifixion.

Eusebius gives the names of the bishops of Jerusalem in that twenty-eight-year period: Zacchaeus followed Justus, then Tobias, Benjamin, John, Matthias, Philip, Seneca, Justus II, Levi, Ephres, Joseph, and Judas. Eusebius makes it clear that his source is Hegesippus, who may have known some of them. Epiphanius of Salamis gives a list of twenty-seven, of which the first fifteen correspond to those of Eusebius. But whether they were all bishops has been argued by scholars. Adolf von Harnack suggests that some were just presbyters (collegia). Gunther Van de Brock notes that the latter six names occur in the apocryphal letter of James to Quadratus. They are described by Bauckham as "respected scribes of the Jews" who had converted to Christianity and who may have been co-workers with James. Bauckham suggests that James had set up a college of twelve to rule with him.

Eusebius writes: "I have not found many written statements of the dates of the bishops of Jerusalem, for tradition says that they were extremely short-lived."
https://books.google.com/books?id=ErEBB ... 22&f=false

DCH
outhouse
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote: DCH

What is your take on the James recorded for the Jerusalem house? Do you think he was an unknown Hellenist named James or the actual Galilean brother of the Jesus character.

I cannot see any historicity to Jerusalem and any Aramaic Galileans.
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DCHindley
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by DCHindley »

outhouse wrote:
DCHindley wrote: DCH
What is your take on the James recorded for the Jerusalem house? Do you think he was an unknown Hellenist named James or the actual Galilean brother of the Jesus character.

I cannot see any historicity to Jerusalem and any Aramaic Galileans.
Oh, I believe that the proto-orthodox and later Christian writers *believed* that this James was the brother of Jesus, but whether he actually was or not is up for debate and I have no opinion one way or another. In my humble opinion, a lot of the lore surrounding the family of Jesus and this supposed virgin Judean-Christian church until the time of Trajan/Hadrian is pure fantasy.

As you may recall, I think there is a possibility that the story of James testifying to Jesus up on the temple wall before being hurled down to his death is based on some sort of propaganda piece issued by Simon "son of Giora" during the final years of the war of 66-79 CE, describing his show trial of his once trusted Idumean general, Jacob son of Sosas. Recently arrested for treason against Simon, the account would include mocking by the suggestion that the chief priest Jesus, the 2nd in command next to the HP Ananas of the Provisional Revolutionary Government, who had delivered an insulting address to the Idumean armies who had been locked out of Jerusalem by Ananus, charging them with being untrustworthy (as wild and wooly Idumeans tended to be, he implies), and for which insult Jacob had both him and Ananus publically executed on that same wall, had been right about him, as an Idumean, after all. Hegesippus reworked this propaganda account into the pious story of Jacob the Just, beloved brother of Jesus (Christ).

DCH
John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

Thanks, DC. I will check out McNamer and Pixner's book. (Btw, my ex-wife knows Armenian so maybe I could get her to translate that letter.)

But I notice that their translation of Eusebius is different from the one I found online ("I have not found many written statements of the dates of the bishops of Jerusalem, for tradition says that they were extremely short-lived.")

The one I gave says: "The chronology of the bishops of Jerusalem I have nowhere found preserved in writing..."

And Maier has it as: "I have failed to find any written records of the dates of the bishops in Jerusalem..."

And Williamson and Louth have it as: "Of the dates of the bishops of Jerusalem I have failed to find any written evidence..."
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John2
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

DC wrote:
Oh, I believe that the proto-orthodox and later Christian writers *believed* that this James was the brother of Jesus, but whether he actually was or not is up for debate and I have no opinion one way or another. In my humble opinion, a lot of the lore surrounding the family of Jesus and this supposed virgin Judean-Christian church until the time of Trajan/Hadrian is pure fantasy.
The more I reflect on Hegesippus the more I like what he says. I don't understand why his account is often dismissed as "apologetic" and "hagiographical," as if that somehow distinguishes him from other Christian writings of the time (or all Christian writings?). The only difference to me is that Hegesippus is recounting the history of the Jerusalem church from an arguably Jewish Christian point of view, so it may be unique in that sense but his account does not seem like fantasy to me and seems in keeping with other sources of Jewish Christianity like the Letter of James and Julius Africanus.

And my understanding is that orthodox Christians had issues with Jesus having brothers, hence the different theories (Helvidian, Epiphanian, Hieronymian) -anything but a full brother it seems (which Hegesippus has no issue with).
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andrewcriddle
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by andrewcriddle »

John2 wrote: ...........................
Skarsaune says in note 37 to this that he is following Bauckham in Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church pages 70-79, but those pages aren't viewable for me on Google books, so I can't check that. Nor can I find the Letter of James to Quadratus.
Try https://archive.org/stream/studiasyriac ... 7/mode/2up (in Latin)

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DCHindley
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by DCHindley »

John2 wrote:The more I reflect on Hegesippus the more I like what he says. I don't understand why his account is often dismissed as "apologetic" and "hagiographical," as if that somehow distinguishes him from other Christian writings of the time (or all Christian writings?).

The only difference to me is that Hegesippus is recounting the history of the Jerusalem church from an arguably Jewish Christian point of view, so it may be unique in that sense but his account does not seem like fantasy to me and seems in keeping with other sources of Jewish Christianity like the Letter of James and Julius Africanus. ...
John2,

I just find the story of James' death to be too, well, weird, to be taken seriously. The speech on the wall about what is the "door of Jesus" (we do not know what the context of this demand was, as Eusebius does not give it) makes no sense to me as an early Christian relic. What we know of Hegesippus is all relayed by Eusebius, and describes a man on a mission to Rome, apparently for business, who liked to record the legends about the early days of Christianity as told by his Christian hosts in the various towns he passed through on the way. He kept a notebook of these matters, which he reworked into narrative form much later in his life.

However, that being said, in the Pastor (or Shepherd) of Hermas, Similitudes 9, chapter 12, there are statements about the Kingdom of God being like a walled city with a single gate, being the Son of God. This does remind me of the story about the interrogation of James the Just by the high priests up on the city wall. "What is the Gate of Jesus?" While I still like my theory that this is an allusion to a hypothetical interrogation of the disgraced Idumean general Jacob son of Sosas, this kind of thing adds a new dimension to the possible origin of the story about the death of James the Just. The Pastor of Hermas, though, is itself of unknown origin and also kind of fantastic and whimsical.

DCH
ch 12: “First of all, sir,” I said, “explain this to me: What is the meaning of the rock and the gate?”

“This rock,” he answered, “and this gate are the Son of God.”

“How, sir?” I said; “the rock is old, and the gate is new.”

“Listen,” he said, “and understand, O ignorant man.

The Son of God is older than all His creatures, so that He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation: for this reason is He old.”

“And why is the gate new, sir?” I said.

“Because,” he answered, “He became manifest in the last days of the dispensation: for this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God. You saw,” he said, “that those stones which came in through the gate were used for the building of the tower, and that those which did not come, were again thrown back to their own place?”

“I saw, sir,” I replied.

“In like manner,” he continued, “no one shall enter into the kingdom of God unless he receive His holy name.

For if you desire to enter into a city, and that city is surrounded by a wall, and has but one gate, can you enter into that city save through the gate which it has?”

“Why, how can it be otherwise, sir?” I said.

“If, then, you cannot enter into the city except through its gate, so, in like manner, a man cannot otherwise enter into the kingdom of God than by the name of His beloved Son.

You saw,” he added, “the multitude who were building the tower?”

“I saw them, sir,” I said.

“Those,” he said, “are all glorious angels, and by them accordingly is the Lord surrounded.

And the gate is the Son of God.

This is the one entrance to the Lord.

In no other way, then, shall any one enter in to Him except through His Son.
Rev20
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by Rev20 »

John2 wrote:I notice there is an interesting difference between Mt. 24:15-21 and Lk. 21. . . . Whatever Mt. 24:15 could be referring to, I think it's interesting that it says, "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter" because Vespasian surrounded Jerusalem in mid 69 CE . . . But I would wager though that the version in Matthew is older and Luke (using Matthew) added the references to Jerusalem in keeping with the theme in Luke and Acts of the holy spirit making its way from Jerusalem to Rome.
John2, there was an earlier event in A.D. 66 when Jerusalem was surrounded by the armies of Cestius Gallus during the early days of Jerusalem's internal sedition. Shortly after arriving, Cestius and his troops left Judaea for unknown reasons, giving the Christians time to flee:
  • "But now Cestius, observing that the disturbances that were begun among the Jews afforded him a proper opportunity to attack them, took his whole [Roman] army along with him, and put the Jews to flight, and pursued them to Jerusalem . . . Now for the people, they were kept under by the seditious; but the seditious themselves were greatly affrighted at the good order of the Romans, and retired from the suburbs, and retreated into the inner part of the city, and into the temple . . . It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." [Flavius Josephus, "The Complete Works: Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1934, Book II.19.4, 7, pp.1269-71]
In an earlier Roman excursion by General Vitellius, it was noted that the mere presence of Roman troops and their pagan images on Judaean soil was considered an abomination--so much so that the Jews were able to persuade Vitellius to send his troops around Judaea, rather than through it:
  • "So Vitellius prepared to make war with Aretas, having with him two legions of armed men; he also took with him all those of light armature, and of the horsemen which belonged to them, and were drawn out of those kingdoms which were under the Romans, and made haste for Petra, and came to Ptolemais. But as he was marching very busily, and leading his army through Judea, the principal men met him, and desired that he would not thus march through their land; for that the laws of their country would not permit them to overlook those images [eagles] which were brought into it, of which there were a great many in their ensigns; so he was persuaded by what they said, and changed that resolution of his which he had before taken in this matter. Whereupon he ordered the army to march along the great plain, while he himself, with Herod the tetrarch and his friends, went up to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, an ancient festival of the Jews being then just approaching;" [William Whiston, Antiquities of the Jews, "The Works of Flavius Josephus Vol 3." George Bell& Sons, 1889, Book XVIII.5.3, pp.284-85]
Therefore, the arrival of the Roman troops under Cestius Gallus in AD 66 could very well have been the fulfillment of Mat 24:15, Mar 13:14, and Luk 21:20,
  • "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" -- Mat 24:15-16 KJV

    "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" -- Mar 13:14 KJV

    "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto." -- Luk 21:20-21 KJV
The internal civil war that followed (and continued up until after the arrival of General Titus and his troops in April, AD 70) was so horrific that it was likely the beginning of the great tribulation as foretold by Christ.

Rev20
outhouse
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Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by outhouse »

DCHindley wrote:
outhouse wrote:
DCHindley wrote: DCH
What is your take on the James recorded for the Jerusalem house? Do you think he was an unknown Hellenist named James or the actual Galilean brother of the Jesus character.

I cannot see any historicity to Jerusalem and any Aramaic Galileans.
Oh, I believe that the proto-orthodox and later Christian writers *believed* that this James was the brother of Jesus, but whether he actually was or not is up for debate and I have no opinion one way or another. In my humble opinion, a lot of the lore surrounding the family of Jesus and this supposed virgin Judean-Christian church until the time of Trajan/Hadrian is pure fantasy.

As you may recall, I think there is a possibility that the story of James testifying to Jesus up on the temple wall before being hurled down to his death is based on some sort of propaganda piece issued by Simon "son of Giora" during the final years of the war of 66-79 CE, describing his show trial of his once trusted Idumean general, Jacob son of Sosas. Recently arrested for treason against Simon, the account would include mocking by the suggestion that the chief priest Jesus, the 2nd in command next to the HP Ananas of the Provisional Revolutionary Government, who had delivered an insulting address to the Idumean armies who had been locked out of Jerusalem by Ananus, charging them with being untrustworthy (as wild and wooly Idumeans tended to be, he implies), and for which insult Jacob had both him and Ananus publically executed on that same wall, had been right about him, as an Idumean, after all. Hegesippus reworked this propaganda account into the pious story of Jacob the Just, beloved brother of Jesus (Christ).

DCH

Thank you for the detailed answer. And I agree they believed in a James, Pauline text used it as authority building to his stance on Laws compared to law that follows Judaism tighter as described.
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