The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John T »

The abomination that desolates took place in 70 A.D. exactly 3 1/2 years after the Christians had already fled Jerusalem in 66 A.D.

Based on Eusebius 3-5-3 and Epiphanius Panarion the Jerusalem followers of Jesus, (led by Simon son of Clophas), fled the city of Jerusalem to the mountains of Gilead (Pella).

These Jerusalem Christians became known as the "Ebionites" or "poor ones" and did not leave Jerusalem in hast after the murder of James the Just in 62 A.D. but due to an oracle calculated a final seven-year period from that date and left at the halfway period sometime during 66 A.D.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

I'm starting to doubt the Pella flight tradition. It reminds me of the idea that Eusebius and Epiphanius got their lists of Roman or Jerusalem bishops from Hegesippus. Maybe so, but I'm not convinced. I suspect in both cases -the Pella flight and the bishop lists- the buck stops with Eusebius (and if it wasn't for Goldberg, who has put me on the fence, I would say the same thing about the TF).

I've noticed that Eusbius tends to (or is it "always does"?) specifically mention Hegesippus when he uses information from him, but he does not do this regarding the Pella flight. (This is all taken from Peter Kirby's blog post on Hegesippus: http://peterkirby.com/chasing-hegesippus.html)
The manner of James’ death has been already indicated by the above-quoted words of Clement, who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs.
After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.
There is extant an epistle of this Clement which is acknowledged to be genuine and is of considerable length and of remarkable merit. He wrote it in the name of the church of Rome to the church of Corinth, when a sedition had arisen in the latter church. We know that this epistle also has been publicly used in a great many churches both in former times and in our own. And of the fact that a sedition did take place in the church of Corinth at the time referred to Hegesippus is a trustworthy witness.
But when they were released they ruled the churches because they were witnesses and were also relatives of the Lord. And peace being established, they lived until the time of Trajan. These things are related by Hegesippus.
It is reported that after the age of Nero and Domitian, under the emperor whose times we are now recording, a persecution was stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising. In this persecution we have understood that Symeon, the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second bishop of the church of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom. Hegesippus, whose words we have already quoted in various places, is a witness to this fact also.
Nevertheless, in those times the truth again called forth many champions who fought in its defense against the godless heresies, refuting them not only with oral, but also with written arguments. Among these Hegesippus was well known. We have already quoted his words a number of times, relating events which happened in the time of the apostles according to his account. He records in five books the true tradition of apostolic doctrine in a most simple style, and he indicates the time in which he flourished when he writes as follows ...
And in Rome Pius died in the fifteenth year of his episcopate, and Anicetus assumed the leadership of the Christians there. Hegesippus records that he himself was in Rome at this time, and that he remained there until the episcopate of Eleutherus.

At that time there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before ... Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views.
The same author also describes the beginnings of the heresies which arose in his time ...
The same writer also records the ancient heresies which arose among the Jews, in the following words ...
And he wrote of many other matters, which we have in part already mentioned, introducing the accounts in their appropriate places ...
Now, there isn't much (or anything?) more to what Eusebius uses from Hegesippus, so if he got the Pella flight information from him then he is strangely silent about it, even though he says that Hegesippus "wrote of many other matters."

So I'm starting to not only suspect that Eusebius did not get this information from Hegesippus, it doesn't appear to even be based on the "flee to the mountains" sayings in Mk. 13/Mt. 24/Lk. 21, which would seemingly be appropriate, since he says that the message came to the Jerusalem Church "by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war," and he then goes on to mention (or allude to) only Daniel regarding the abomination of the desolation and Josephus regarding the fall of Jerusalem.
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem “as in a prison,” to use his own words. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up “as in a prison,” they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God. Taking the fifth book of the History of Josephus again in our hands, let us go through the tragedy of events which then occurred.
So the fact that Eusebius does not credit the Pella flight tradition to anyone, let alone Hegesippus, or even the gospels, seems odd to me. How easy would it have been for him to say in this case, like he does above, "Hegesippus, whose words we have already quoted in various places, is a witness to this fact also."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

Perhaps Eusebius' statement about the Pella flight is based on Jesus ben Ananias in War.6.5.3, since after he mentions the Pella flight and "the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time" he says "all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus."
But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city ... at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" ... Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
Eusebius:
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
John T
Posts: 1567
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:57 am

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John T »

I have not tried to verify Epiphanius' source for the Pella tradition. Instead, I trust respected scholars like James Tabor who did and writes; "...there is strong evidence in its favor..."...The Jesus Dynasty (pg 299).

If you want to track it down, Tabor's footnote regarding the oracle is as follows: 14. Eusebius Church History 3.5.3; Epiphanius Panarion 29.7; 30.2.

Then of course there is Robert Eisenmen's interesting research as to where the Jerusalem church (James the Just/Ebionites) fled to but you are probably already aware of that.

Sincerely,

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

John T,

I suppose we are only talking about a difference of a few years, since I gather we both agree that there were Jewish Christians in Jerusalem at the time of James' death c. 62 CE. Were any there in 63 CE? 64? 66? 70? I'm not sure. But I don't see any indication that the Pella flight tradition is any earlier than Eusebius. It looks to me like it could be his understanding (or Christianizing) of the account of Jesus ben Ananias in Josephus, similar to his understanding (or Christianizing) of the Therapeutae in Philo. Do I think there were Therapeutae in Egypt in Philo's time? Yes. Do I think they were Christians or proto-Christians? No, but I suppose it's not impossible, and Eusebius thought so.

The same would go for Jesus ben Ananias' proclamation about Jerusalem "before the war" in Josephus. I think Eusebius is reading into this passage (and breaking off from Hegesippus at this point) to support the doctrine that Jerusalem had to be free of Christians so that "the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men [and] the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men," as he puts it. I think this was his motivation for creating the Pella flight tradition and why he breaks off from Hegesippus here (because Hegesippus did not mention it?) and only mentions Josephus in this context.

I think that his lack of a reference to the sayings in Mk. 13/Mt. 24/Lk.21 indicates that this tradition was probably not based on these sayings but only on Eusebius' mind (only later does Epiphanius make this -what I would consider to be a fairly obvious- connection).

But do I think that Jewish Christians could have been aware of this proclamation and consequently fled Jerusalem and Judea before the 66-70 CE war, like anyone else who may have done this (even though I think a connection is being made only by Eusebius)? I don't see why not (assuming that Jesus ben Ananias existed), but in the bigger picture I suspect that there were already Jewish Christians living outside of Jerusalem and Judea, for as long as there had been a "new covenant in the land of Damascus" or people who "went out of the land of Judah to sojourn in the land of Damascus," as the Damascus Document puts it. And I suppose that this relocation process could have started long before the war and lasted all the way to the end of it and even after.

I will check out Tabor, but I also want to re-read Brandon (it's been about twenty years, and I've only read -and still own- Jesus and the Zealots), since he was a proponent of the idea that there were Jewish Christians in Jerusalem all the way to the end of the war. And I've always wanted to read The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church, and I see that it is partly viewable here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zrdMA ... on&f=false

Update. I also want to look at Bauckham's book Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church and am putting a link to it here so I don't forget.

https://books.google.com/books?id=oCOdB ... am&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

I'm still looking into the Pella flight tradition and came across an interesting account about the OT translator Aquila/Onkelos in Epiphanius' Weights and Measures, which says that he visited Jerusalem in the time of Hadrian and "saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing" there. And while it doesn't say exactly when this had happened, in section 13 just before this account it says that "In the twelfth year of Hadrian Aquila became known," which is c. 130 CE and around the time that Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem (as Aelia Capitolina). So I would guess that this is the Jerusalem that Aquila visited and that "the disciples of the disciples of the apostles" had returned to, since I have the impression that prior to this there would not have been much of anything there to return to.
15. So Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned, in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis. But after the destruction of Jerusalem, when they had returned to Jerusalem, as I have said, they wrought great signs, as I have already said.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/epiph ... 3_text.htm
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

Yes, this has to be the case, since it says in section 14 just before the above section:
And he [Hadrian] took the Aquila mentioned above, who was a Greek interpreter, since Hadrian also was a Greek -now Aquila was related to the king by marriage and was from Sinope in Pontus- and he established him there in Jerusalem as overseer of the work of building the city. And he gave to the city that was being built his own name and the appellation of the royal title. For as he was named Aelius Hadrian, so he also named the city Aelia.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

On a side note, I noticed something interesting about the Dead Sea Scrolls in Bauckham's Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church. I always hear how the existence of extra-biblical writings like 1 Enoch at Qumran means that they had a different canon than the one that Josephus says existed for all Jews in the first century CE, and while noting that Jude also appears to know extra-biblical writings (including 1 Enoch), Bauckham says (pg. 226):
A comparison in the first place with the Qumran literature and secondly with other early Christian writers will put Jude's usage in perspective. From the surviving copies and fragments of apocryphal literature from Qumran, it is clear that the Qumran community read and valued a wide variety of apocryphal and pseudepigraphal works, including the Enoch literature. On the other hand it is a notable fact that not only are the community's commentaries on Scripture, the pesharim, commentaries only on books which belong to the canon of the Hebrew Bible, but also formal citations of Scripture in these and other works of the community are confined to the books of the canon. There seem to be only two instances where apocryphal works are treated in the same way as canonical Scripture ... These may be exceptions that prove the rule, but they provide at least distant parallels to Jude's use of apocryphal literature in a commentary resembling the thematic pesharim at Qumran.


This situation is summed up by Josephus in Against Apion:
It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add any thing to them, to take any thing from them, or to make any change in them; but it is become natural to all Jews immediately, and from their very birth, to esteem these books to contain divine doctrines, and to persist in them, and, if occasion be willingly to die for them.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

John T wrote:
I have not tried to verify Epiphanius' source for the Pella tradition. Instead, I trust respected scholars like James Tabor who did and writes; "...there is strong evidence in its favor..."...The Jesus Dynasty (pg 299).
I was able to see this page on Google books when I was at the library the other day but I can't see it today at work so I can only go from memory. But I recall that Tabor is looking at the same sources I am and I don't agree with his conclusion, and there are "respected scholars" who differ with his conclusion as well. I already mentioned Brandon (who I need to re-read), and Harlow, who says "The historicity of the Pella tradition is disputed," adds Strecker, Munck, Gaston and Ludemann.

https://books.google.com/books?id=2KY-C ... la&f=false

Broadhead too notes that "A number of scholars dispute the historicity of the flight."

https://books.google.com/books?id=C97_r ... la&f=false

And Luomanen says:
The tradition about the disciples' flight to Pella before the conquest of Jerusalem, as transmitted by Eusebius ... is hardly historical as such.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ujIWl ... la&f=false
The best thing to do is look at the primary sources (Eusebius and Epiphanius), and it looks to me like Eusebius based the Pella flight on the Jesus ben Ananias passage in Josephus.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

Post by John2 »

And it looks to me like Epiphanius is using Eusebius and trying to guess what he means by "the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella."

In Weights and Measures 15 Epiphanius similarly says that this oracle was "revealed" (in this case by an angel):
...it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned, in Transjordania.
But in Panarion 29.7.8 he connects it (presumably) to Jesus' sayings in Mk. 13/Mt.24/Lk.21:
...all the disciples had settled in Pella after their remove from Jerusalem, Christ having told them to abandon Jerusalem and withdraw from it because of the siege it was about to undergo. And they settled in Peraea for this reason and, as I said, lived their lives there.
I think this is an indication that Epiphanius did not know the writings of Hegesippus beyond what is cited by Eusebius and that Hegesippus did not mention the Pella flight, because if Hegesippus did mention the Pella flight (and Eusebius chose not to cite or credit him for it), and if Epiphanius had access to more of Hegesippus than Eusebius cites, then he wouldn't have had to guess the reason for it.

I suppose that since Epiphanius says elsewhere that Jewish Christians believed that Jesus was an angel and Hegesippus says that Jesus' kingdom is angelic, maybe Hegesippus did mention the Pella flight (though Eusebius doesn't credit him for it) and attributed it to Jesus (though Eusebius gives a different reason for it) and said that Jesus was an angel (which seems plausible) and Epiphanius' two accounts are consistent and based on more of Hegesippus than Eusebius cites, but it doesn't sound like Epiphanius is referring to Jesus in Weights and Measures.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Post Reply