The Jerusalem Church after 70 CE

[John2]

But even if "the holy place" in Mt. 24:15 refers to Jerusalem, I think it would still mean 70 CE because it says the abomination that causes desolation would be seen "standing in" it.

[MrMacSon]

But even if "the holy place" in Mt. 24:15 refers to Jerusalem, I think it would still mean 70 CE because it says the abomination that causes desolation would be seen "standing in" it.

• I wonder if that could refer to a statue [of Zeus, or Jupiter] erected by Hadrian ie. in or slightly before the 130s AD/CE [or both periods].

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[MrMacSon]

But later Eusebius says:

It is reported that after the age of Nero and Domitian, under the emperor whose times we are now recording [Trajan], a persecution was stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising. In this persecution we have understood that Symeon, the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second bishop of the church of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom. Hegesippus, whose words we have already quoted in various places, is a witness to this fact also.

So here we have a reference to "certain cities," which may or may not include Jerusalem, and I would lean towards the latter given that a) the setting is Trajan's time*, when the "church of Jerusalem" is elsewhere said to have been located outside of Jerusalem (e.g., Pella); b) the grandsons of Jude are said to have been farmers and owned land, which does not sound like Jerusalem; c) when they were released after being interrogated by Domitian, Hegesippus says that Domitian then "put a stop to the persecution of the Church [singular]. But when they were released they ruled the churches [plural] because they were witnesses and were also relatives of the Lord. And peace being established, they lived until the time of Trajan"; and d) I have the impression from other sources that Jerusalem did not have any Jewish residents between 70 CE and 135 CE, it seems that in this context "the Jerusalem Church" effectively means "the Jerusalem Church in exile," and this must be where Symeon was executed, i.e., somewhere outside of Jerusalem.

• * I think that is a reasonable proposition.
  
  As is the proposition that Symeon was executed somewhere outside of Jerusalem or at least not in the old [Jewish] Jerusalem.

[outhouse]

But even if "the holy place" in Mt. 24:15 refers to Jerusalem, I think it would still mean 70 CE because it says the abomination that causes desolation would be seen "standing in" it.

I wonder if this refers to the statue of Jupiter erected by Hadrian ie. in or slightly before the 130s AD/CE.

Laughably no it does not

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Acts 10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luke 21:20. The Roman army is further called the "abomination" on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.
Spoken of by Daniel the prophet - Daniel 9:26-27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11, see the notes at those passages.

Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not," meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed "holy," Matthew 4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there, "Jewish Wars," b. 6 chapter 6, section 1.

Whoso readeth ... - This seems to be a remark made by the evangelist to direct the attention of the reader particularly to the meaning of the prophecy by Daniel.

[MrMacSon]

I notice there is an interesting difference between Mt. 24:15-21 and Lk. 21.

Mt. 24:15-21:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Lk. 21:20-24:

When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The version in Matthew gives me the impression that it refers to the Romans sacrificing to their standards on the Temple Mount in 70 CE when Titus was in charge because it says that "the abomination that causes desolation" would be seen "standing in the holy place," which I assume means the Temple, but the version in Luke seems to be more in line with Vespasian and his an army surrounding Jerusalem and riding up to the walls, especially since it also says that this would be a sign that Jerusalem's desolation "is near" and that it "will be trampled on" rather than it being an accomplished fact at that point.

Whatever Mt. 24:15 could be referring to, I think it's interesting that it says, "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter" because Vespasian surrounded Jerusalem in mid 69 CE.

But I would wager though that the version in Matthew is older and Luke (using Matthew) added the references to Jerusalem in keeping with the theme in Luke and Acts of the holy spirit making its way from Jerusalem to Rome.

In any event, I think the (in my view original) version in Matthew (whether or not it is a genuine saying of Jesus) is evidence that the founders of the post-70 CE Jewish Christian community that produced Matthew did leave Judea (if not also Jerusalem) for "the mountains" like other Jews did at that time (like Masada).

• These passages could refer to events around the 2nd Roman-Jewish War (the Bar Kochba Revolt).

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[outhouse]

These passages could refer to events around the 2nd Roman-Jewish War (the Bar Kochba Revolt).

It could refer to bigfoot or a unicorn, but in context it does refer to the first war.

[MrMacSon]

But even if "the holy place" in Mt. 24:15 refers to Jerusalem, I think it would still mean 70 CE because it says the abomination that causes desolation would be seen "standing in" it.

I wonder if this refers to the statue of Jupiter erected by Hadrian ie. in or slightly before the 130s AD/CE.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Acts 10:28.

The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luke 21:20. The Roman army is further called the "abomination" on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.

Spoken of by Daniel the prophet - Daniel 9:26-27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11, see the notes at those passages.

Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not," meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed "holy," Matthew 4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there, "Jewish Wars," b. 6 chapter 6, section 1.

Whoso readeth ... - This seems to be a remark made by the evangelist to direct the attention of the reader particularly to the meaning of the prophecy by Daniel.

Yes, the abomination of desolation means "an abominable or hateful destroyer" and probably means the consequences of the Roman army.

Previous uses of the term do not preclude its use in NT gospels also referring to events associated with the 2nd Roman-Jewish War.

[Peter Kirby]

These passages could refer to events around the 2nd Roman-Jewish War (the Bar Kochba Revolt).

It could refer to bigfoot or a unicorn, but in context it does refer to the first war.

Do you have an argument for that?

You do realize that the Bar Kochba Revolt was a real thing, unlike "bigfoot or a unicorn"? Wow. Much scholarly. Very evidenced.

[John2]

Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not," meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed "holy," Matthew 4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there, "Jewish Wars," b. 6 chapter 6, section 1.

I see. I overlooked that there's also a version in Mark 13.

When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Then ultimately this saying is original to what I consider to be a post-70 CE Pauline Christian writing (Mark) and not to a post-70 CE Jewish Christian writing stemming from people who fled the 66-70 CE war (Matthew).

And no matter how Matthew and Luke tweaked it, I can live with all the options in the above statement regarding the meaning of the abomination that desolates:

The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there,

So it probably just means more or less 70 CE then.

But were there Jewish Christians in Jerusalem up to the end? I suppose there could have been a number of die hards, like any other die hard Jews caught up in the Fourth Philosophy (which is what I think Christianity stems from). But there doesn't appear to have been any after that. I see a lot of people hanging the Pella flight oracle on Hegesippua, but I'm not sure if that's where Eusebius got his reference but I suppose it's not impossible, but in any event I infer from Hegesippus that the "Jerusalem Church" wasn't actually in Jerusalem after 70 CE (and it doesn't look like any Jews lived there between 70 CE and the time of Hadrian).

But it does look like there were Jewish Christians in Jerusalem at least up to shortly after the death of James in the early 60's CE, and that's close enough for me to think that they were in one way or another affected by the 66-70 CE war, whether any of them stayed in Jerusalem to the end or not. But in favor of the idea that at least some of them did stay to the end or were at least close enough to witness it is that the saying in Mk. 13/Mt. 24 requires seeing "the abomination that causes desolation standing where it does not belong" (in the words of the original Markan version) before fleeing Judea, which more or less happened in 70 CE.

[John2]

And this seems to be what Hegessipus means by "And immediately Vespasian besieged them," i.e., that following the death of James there were Jewish Christians in Jerusalem up to the start of the 66-70 CE war and possibly even after (assuming that "them" means Jewish Christians and not Jews in general).

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