An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Chap. LXII. — End of the Conference.

“And, therefore, since amongst these philosophers are things uncertain, we must come to the true Prophet. Him God the Father wished to be loved by all, and accordingly He has been pleased wholly to extinguish those opinions which have originated with men, and in regard to which there is nothing like certainty — that He the true Prophet might be the more sought after, and that He whom22 they had obscured should show to men the way of truth. For on this account also God made the world, and by Him the world is filled; whence also He is everywhere near to them who seek Him, though He be sought in the remotest ends of the earth. But if any one seek Him not purely, nor holily, nor faithfully, He is indeed within him, because He is everywhere, and is found within the minds of all men; but, as we have said before, He is dormant to the unbelieving, and is held to be absent from those by whom His existence is not believed.” And when Peter had said this, and more to the same effect, concerning the true Prophet, he dismissed the crowds; and when he very earnestly entreated the old man to remain with us, he could prevail nothing; but he also departed, to return next day, as had been agreed upon. And after this, we also, with Peter, went to our lodging, and enjoyed our accustomed food and rest.
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Interesting note. I am trying to see if your interpretation can be refuted from the text or whether it holds up. (I could go either way; for example, I have said before that Trypho seems misinterpreted, but I have also attempted to find something of interest in the quotations of Celsius, albeit unsuccessfully.)

Right away I have noticed that the references to the coming of Jesus are incredibly noncommittal, to the point of making it seem that the alternative is a live option.

For example, in chapter 6,

"Not to make a long story of it, whilst I was tossed upon these billows of my thought, a certain report, which took its rise in the regions of the East in the reign of Tiberius Cæsar, gradually reached us; and gaining strength as it passed through every place, like some good message sent from God, it was filling the whole world, and suffered not the divine will to be concealed in silence. For it was spread over all places, announcing that there was a certain person in Judæa, who, beginning in the springtime, was preaching the kingdom of God to the Jews ... These and such like things were confirmed in process of time, not now by frequent rumours, but by the plain statements of persons coming from those quarters; and day by day the truth of the matter was further disclosed."

Nothing unusual here, but the references to "a certain report" and "frequent rumors" do remind one of the statement by Trypho and make you wonder if some did believe that the story about there being "a certain person in Judaea" was considered a "groundless report" by some. Notice the phrasing (at least in the translation) of "announcing that there was a certain person in Judaea."

Also, for example, in chapter 11.

“Only expound to me the doctrine of that man who you say has appeared, and I will arrange your sayings in my language, and will preach the kingdom and righteousness of Almighty God; and after that, if you wish it, I shall even sail along with you, for I am extremely desirous to see Judæa, and perhaps I shall remain with you always.”

Thus Clement talks to Barnabas about "that man who you say has appeared."
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Chapters 32-33 give us the appearance of the "true Prophet." (= "angel of the Lord," cf. Genesis 22)

(Side note: Of course it stands as another confirmation of the whole two-powers-in-heaven idea, doesn't it?)

"Whence also an angel, standing by him in a vision, instructed him more fully concerning those things which he was beginning to perceive. He showed him also what belonged to his race and posterity, and promised him that those districts should be restored rather than given to them. Therefore Abraham, when he was desirous to learn the causes of things, and was intently pondering upon what had been told him, the true Prophet appeared to him, who alone knows the hearts and purpose of men, and disclosed to him all things which he desired. He taught him the knowledge of the Divinity; intimated the origin of the world, and likewise its end; showed him the immortality of the soul, and the manner of life which was pleasing to God; declared also the resurrection of the dead, the future judgment, the reward of the good, the punishment of the evil,—all to be regulated by righteous judgment: and having given him all this information plainly and sufficiently, He departed again to the invisible abodes."

Chapter 34 does it again (= "angel of the Lord," cf. Exodus 3)

"...they were afflicted by the Egyptians. And when they were afflicted the true Prophet appeared to Moses..."

Chapter 36 explains that the sacrifices of the old covenant were a temporary measure and gives a proof text regarding the "prophet." (Deuteronomy 18:15, the one like Moses)

“When meantime Moses, that faithful and wise steward, perceived that the vice of sacrificing to idols had been deeply ingrained into the people from their association with the Egyptians, and that the root of this evil could not be extracted from them, he allowed them indeed to sacrifice, but permitted it to be done only to God, that by any means he might cut off one half of the deeply ingrained evil, leaving the other half to be corrected by another, and at a future time; by Him, namely, concerning whom he said himself, ‘A prophet shall the Lord your God raise unto you, whom ye shall hear even as myself, according to all things which He shall say to you. Whosoever shall not hear that prophet, his soul shall be cut off from his people.' "

Chapter 39 appears to allude to the role of the Baptizer in preparing for the message of the Prophet, without naming him. (Notably, Celsus questioned whether John was a baptizer.)

"But when the time began to draw near that what was wanting in the Mosaic institutions should be supplied, as we have said, and that the Prophet should appear, of whom he had foretold that He should warn them by the mercy of God to cease from sacrificing; lest haply they might suppose that on the cessation of sacrifice there was no remission of sins for them, He instituted baptism by water amongst them"

Chapter 40 refers to the rejection of the prophet in terms that parallel the gospels.

"And not only did they not believe, but they added blasphemy to unbelief, saying that He was a gluttonous man and a belly-slave, and that He was actuated by a demon, even He who had come for their salvation."

Chapter 42 does similarly.

"Meantime, when He had suffered, and darkness had overwhelmed the world from the sixth even to the ninth hour, as soon as the sun shone out again, and things were returned to their usual course, even wicked men returned to themselves and their former practices, their fear having abated. For some of them, watching the place with all care, when they could not prevent His rising again, said that He was a magician; others pretended that he was stolen away.”

Chapter 43 claims that the point of dispute (with "unbelieving Jews") was limited. (In the context of the story of the early Jerusalem group of apostles.)

"Therefore they often sent to us, and asked us to discourse to them concerning Jesus, whether He were the Prophet whom Moses foretold, who is the eternal Christ. For on this point only does there seem to be any difference between us who believe in Jesus, and the unbelieving Jews."

Chapter 44 similarly:

"While this was going on, Caiaphas, the high priest, sent priests to us, and asked us to come to him, that either we should prove to him that Jesus is the eternal Christ, or he to us that He is not, and that so all the people should agree upon the one faith or the other; and this he frequently entreated us to do."
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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It is at this point that the dialogue turns more broadly to discuss the differences between the Gentile and Jewish reception of the gospel.

Chapter 49 points out (in protest) that the prophecy of a a double arrival of the Christ is a little harder to show. It might be saying that one's belief that the Messiah has come implies that he must come again, to fulfill the rest of the prophecies regarding his coming.

“His coming, therefore, was predicted by Moses, who delivered the law of God to men; but by another also before him, as I have already informed you. He therefore intimated that He should come, humble indeed in His first coming, but glorious in His second. And the first, indeed, has been already accomplished; since He has come and taught, and He, the Judge of all, has been judged and slain. But at His second coming He shall come to judge, and shall indeed condemn the wicked, but shall take the pious into a share and association with Himself in His kingdom. Now the faith of His second coming depends upon His first. For the prophets—especially Jacob and Moses—spoke of the first, but some also of the second. But the excellency of prophecy is chiefly shown in this, that the prophets spoke not of things to come, according to the sequence of things; otherwise they might seem merely as wise men to have conjectured what the sequence of things pointed out.”

Chapter 50 points out that the Jews expect the coming of the Messiah but that the do not believe that "he has come already in humility." Only the Christians believe that "he has come already in humility - even he who is called Jesus." While the earlier discussion set more or less in a sequence of the Gospel story made it plain that they were arguing over whether Jesus is the Messiah, that's not apparent from chapter 50. From chapter 50, what you'd find is that "they do not know" that he has come already in humility. You can't quite get from there to say that they did not believe in "he who is called Jesus," but, from the passage, it's possible. They certainly do not believe "on him," but it's unclear whether they believe that he existed as a man, from this part of the dialogue. However, it doesn't seem wise to lean too hard on that, given the surrounding text.

“But what I say is this: It was to be expected that Christ should be received by the Jews, to whom He came, and that they should believe on Him who was expected for the salvation of the people, according to the traditions of the fathers; but that the Gentiles should be averse to Him, since neither promise nor announcement concerning Him had been made to them, and indeed he had never been made known to them even by name. Yet the prophets, contrary to the order and sequence of things, said that He should be the expectation of the Gentiles, and not of the Jews. And so it happened. For when He came, he was not at all acknowledged by those who seemed to expect Him, in consequence of the tradition of their ancestors; whereas those who had heard nothing at all of Him, both believe that He has come, and hope that he is to come. And thus in all things prophecy appears faithful, which said that He was the expectation of the Gentiles. The Jews, therefore, have erred concerning the first coming of the Lord; and on this point only there is disagreement betwixt us and them. For they themselves know and expect that Christ shall come; but that he has come already in humility—even he who is called Jesus—they do not know. And this is a great confirmation of His coming, that all do not believe on Him.”

However, if it's not clear from chapter 50, it's clear again in chapter 53, when Peter slips back into speaking about Caiaphas and the gospel story.
“Wherefore there is not the least doubt concerning Christ; and all the unbelieving Jews are stirred up with boundless rage against us, fearing lest haply He against whom they have sinned should be He. And their fear grows all the greater, because they know that, as soon as they fixed Him on the cross, the whole world showed sympathy with Him; and that His body, although they guarded it with strict care, could nowhere be found; and that innumerable multitudes are attaching themselves to His faith. Whence they, together with the high priest Caiaphas, were compelled to send to us again and again, that an inquiry might be instituted concerning the truth of His name. And when they were constantly entreating that they might either learn or teach concerning Jesus, whether He were the Christ, it seemed good to us to go up into the temple, and in the presence of all the people to bear witness concerning Him, and at the same time to charge the Jews with many foolish things which they were doing. For the people was now divided into many parties, ever since the days of John the Baptist.”
In another confirmation of some of Stephan Huller's ideas, chapter 54 speaks about the Samaritans in these terms:

"Another schism is that of the Samaritans; for they deny the resurrection of the dead, and assert that God is not to be worshipped in Jerusalem, but on Mount Gerizim. They indeed rightly, from the predictions of Moses, expect the one true Prophet; but by the wickedness of Dositheus they were hindered from believing that Jesus is He whom they were expecting."

In the following chapters, there are several references to a debate with the apostles regarding whether Jesus was "the true Prophet."

Chapter 56 - "you do not think that this is He whom Moses foretold"
Chapter 57 - "that our Jesus was not He whom Moses foretold as a Prophet to come into the world"

Chapter 59 - A couple statements that follow should not be read against the context, where everyone seems to accept the premise that Jesus was killed. Believing in the "presence and coming of Christ" should probably be believing that Jesus is the Christ. Those who "did not believe in Jesus" seem to be the same ones who had been done good by, yet who called for his death.

"After him James the son of Alphæus gave an address to the people, with the view of showing that we are not to believe on Jesus on the ground that the prophets foretold concerning Him, but rather that we are to believe the prophets, that they were really prophets, because the Christ bears testimony to them; for it is the presence and coming of Christ that show that they are truly prophets: for testimony must be borne by the superior to his inferiors, not by the inferiors to their superior."

"After these and many similar statements, James also was silent. After him Lebbæus began vehemently to charge it upon the people that they did not believe in Jesus, who had done them so much good by teaching them the things that are of God, by comforting the afflicted, healing the sick, relieving the poor; yet for all these benefits their return had been hatred and death. When he had declared these and many more such things to the people, he ceased."

Chapter 69 has James proving the double advent of the Christ from scriptures.

"And when he had discussed most fully concerning the law, and had, by a most clear exposition, brought into light whatever things are in it concerning Christ, he showed by most abundant proofs that Jesus is the Christ, and that in Him are fulfilled all the prophecies which related to His humble advent. For he showed that two advents of Him are foretold: one in humiliation, which He has accomplished; the other in glory, which is hoped for to be accomplished, when He shall come to give the kingdom to those who believe in Him, and who observe all things which He has commanded"

And with James there is an attempt to reconcile the apparent ditheism with some kind of monotheism: "Do not think that we speak of two unbegotten Gods, or that one is divided into two, or that the same is made male and female. But we speak of the only-begotten Son of God, not sprung from another source, but ineffably self-originated [and in like manner we speak of the Paraclete]."

There is a retreat from Jerusalem, a veiled reference to Paul, the beginning of the conflict with Simon the magician. In chapter 73, James "for seven successive days shown the whole people from the Scriptures of the Lord that Jesus is the Christ," once again confirming (at least in the narrative parts) that the existence of Jesus seems to be assumed, and naturally so.
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Thus far book I. Turning to book II, with the showdown between Simon and Peter, the existence of God appears to be common ground, while the "righteousness" of God, the "kingdom," and the "true Prophet" are less apparent things. Those who look after the "secret and hidden" things by asking many questions will "involve himself in greater errors" if he doesn't "first enter through the way of righteousness." If he does, he "may be able to find the true Prophet." The True Prophet is described as some kind of an omnipresent revelator (whatever else he may also be).

Book II, Chapter 22

“For to those who think aright, God is manifest even by the operations of the world which He hath made, using the evidence of His creation; and therefore, since there ought to be no doubt about God, we have now to inquire only about His righteousness and His kingdom. But if our mind suggest to us to make any inquiry concerning secret and hidden things before we inquire into the works of righteousness, we ought to render to ourselves a reason, because if acting well we shall merit to obtain salvation: then, going to God chaste and clean, we shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, and shall know all things that are secret and hidden, without any cavilling of questions; whereas now, even if any one should spend the whole of his life in inquiring into these things, he not only shall not be able to find them, but shall involve himself in greater errors, because he did not first enter through the way of righteousness, and strive to reach the haven of life.”

“And therefore I advise that His righteousness be first inquired into, that, pursuing our journey through it, and placed in the way of truth, we may be able to find the true Prophet, running not with swiftness of foot, but with goodness of works, and that, enjoying His guidance, we may be under no danger of mistaking the way. For if under His guidance we shall merit to enter that city to which we desire to come, all things concerning which we now inquire we shall see with our eyes, being made, as it were, heirs of all things. Understand, therefore, that the way is this course of our life; the travellers are those who do good works; the gate is the true Prophet, of whom we speak; the city is the kingdom in which dwells the Almighty Father, whom only those can see who are of pure heart. Let us not then think the labour of this journey hard, because at the end of it there shall be rest. For the true Prophet Himself also from the beginning of the world, through the course of time, hastens to rest. For He is present with us at all times; and if at any time it is necessary, He appears and corrects us, that He may bring to eternal life those who obey Him. Therefore this is my judgment, as also it is the pleasure of the true Prophet, that inquiry should first be made concerning righteousness, by those especially who profess that they know God. If therefore any one has anything to propose which he thinks better, let him speak; and when he has spoken, let him hear, but with patience and quietness: for in order to this at the first, by way of salutation, I prayed for peace to you all.”

Book II, Chapter 55-56 - Peter directly questions the existence of Simon's higher power.

"For He who created the world, His existence is manifest by His very operation in creating the world, as you yourself also confess. But this power which you say that you alone know, affords no indication of itself, by which we might perceive, at least, that it is, and subsists. What kind of conduct, then, would it be that we should forsake God, in whose world we live and enjoy all things necessary for life, and follow I know not whom, from whom we not only obtain no good, but cannot even know that he exists? Nor truly does he exist."
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Book III, Chapter 47 - Simon says that Peter's master is a magician who couldn't even pull off the trick of saving himself from the cross.

"But your words are all vain; nor can you perform any real works such as I have now mentioned, as he also who sent you is a magician, who yet could not deliver himself from the suffering of the cross.”

Book III, Chapter 63 - OMG, MORTON SMITH WAS HERE!?!!!!!11111111

But when he saw me following him, he called me blessed, and led me to his house; and about the middle of the night he said to me, ‘I shall make you better than all men, if you will remain with me even till the end.’
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Book IV, Chapter 35 - supremacy of James (cf. Gospel of Thomas 12)

Wherefore observe the greatest caution, that you believe no teacher, unless he bring from Jerusalem the testimonial of James the Lord’s brother, or of whosoever may come after him.

Book IV, Chapter 35 - cf. Luke 4:19, "the acceptable year of the Lord."

For there is one true Prophet, whose words we twelve apostles preach; for He is the accepted year of God, having us apostles as His twelve months.

Identifying the "one true Prophet" with the "accepted year of God," with the "apostles as His twelve months," reads like the kind of thing Irenaeus complained about, i.e. the mystification of the year of Christ and its division into twelve months. Interesting.
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Book V, Chapter 10 - Peter speaking

"He therefore is the true Prophet, who appeared to us, as you have heard, in Judæa, who, standing in public places, by a simple command made the blind see, the deaf hear, cast out demons, restored health to the sick, and life to the dead; and since nothing was impossible to Him, He even perceived the thoughts of men, which is possible for none but God only. ..."

Book VII, Chapter 33 - Niceta (a brother of Clement) speaking, Simon mistaken for the Prophet.

"But we adhered, for friendship’s sake and boyish companionship, to one Simon, a magician, who was educated along with us, so that we were almost deceived by him. For there is mention made in our religion of a certain Prophet, whose coming was hoped for by all who observe that religion, through whom immortal and happy life is promised to be given to those who believe in Him. Now we thought that this Simon was he."
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Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

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Book VIII of the Recognitions begins the conversation with "a certain poor old man, a workman."

The first chapter starts out well for the OP's interpretation.

Book VIII, Chapter 1 - the interruption from the old man.

“If you do not take it amiss, and regard me as an inquisitive and importunate person, I should wish to converse with you; for I take pity on you, and would not have you err under the appearance of truth, and be afraid of things that have no existence; or if you think that there is any truth in them, then declare it to me. If, therefore, you take it patiently, I can in a few words instruct you in what is right; but if it be unpleasant to you, I shall go on, and do my business.”

The second chapter, though, makes it plain that the old man questions even the existence of God.

Book VIII, Chapter 2 - the old man continues.

“I saw you bathe in the sea, and afterwards retire into a secret place; wherefore observing, without your noticing me, what you were doing, I saw you praying. Therefore, pitying your error, I waited till you came out, that I might speak to you, and instruct you not to err in an observance of this sort; because there is neither any God, nor any worship, neither is there any providence in the world, but all things are done by fortuitous chance and genesis, as I have discovered most clearly for myself, being accomplished beyond others in the discipline of learning. Do not err, therefore: for whether you pray, or whether you do not pray, whatever your genesis contains, that shall befall you.”

Book VIII, Chapter 4 - the old man reiterates.

"Therefore, in order that both parties may be on an equal footing, it seems to me to be right that each of us should first enunciate what opinion he holds. And, if you please, I shall begin first. I say, then, that the world is not governed according to the providence of God, because we see that many things in it are done unjustly and disorderly; but I say that it is genesis that does and regulates all things.”

Book VIII, Chapter 55 - the old man questions why God would create satan.

To this the old man answered: “But why was that prince made who delights in evil? And from what was he made? Or was he not made?”

Book VII, Chapter 58 - Peter questions the idea of judging God.

"no one can know the mind or the work of the invisible and incomprehensible God, unless He Himself send a prophet to declare His purpose"

Book VIII, Chapter 59 - Peter speaks of the true prophet revealing the truth to the pure of heart.

"But I would not have you think, that in saying this I take away the power of judging concerning things; but I give counsel that no one walk through devious places, and rush into errors without end. And therefore I advise not only wise men, but indeed all men who have a desire of knowing what is advantageous to them, that they seek after the true Prophet; for it is He alone who knoweth all things, and who knoweth what and how every man is seeking. For He is within the mind of every one of us, but in those who have no desire of the knowledge of God and His righteousness, He is inoperative; but He works in those who seek after that which is profitable to their souls, and kindles in them the light of knowledge. Wherefore seek Him first of all; and if you do not find Him, expect not that you shall learn anything from any other. But He is soon found by those who diligently seek Him through love of the truth, and whose souls are not taken possession of by wickedness. For He is present with those who desire Him in the innocency of their spirits, who bear patiently, and draw sighs from the bottom of their hearts through love of the truth; but He deserts malevolent minds, because as a prophet He knows the thoughts of every one. And therefore let no one think that he can find Him by his own wisdom, unless, as we have said, he empty his mind of all wickedness, and conceive a pure and faithful desire to know Him. For when any one has so prepared himself, He Himself as a prophet, seeing a mind prepared for Him, of His own accord offers Himself to his knowledge."

Book VIII, Chapter 60 - Peter continues, "His Deliverances Not to Be Questioned."

“Therefore, if any one wishes to learn all things, he cannot do it by discussing them one by one; for, being mortal, he shall not be able to trace the counsel of God, and to scan immensity itself. But if, as we have said, he desires to learn all things, let him seek after the true Prophet; and when he has found Him, let him not treat with Him by questions and disputations and arguments; but if He has given any response, or pronounced any judgment, it cannot be doubted that this is certain. And therefore, before all things, let the true Prophet be sought, and His words be laid hold of. In respect to these this only should be discussed by every one, that he may satisfy himself if they are truly His prophetic words; that is, if they contain undoubted faith of things to come, if they mark out definite times, if they preserve the order of things, if they do not relate as last those things which are first, nor as first those things which were done last, if they contain nothing subtle, nothing composed by magic art to deceive, or if they have not transferred to themselves things which were revealed to others, and have mixed them with falsehoods. And when, all these things having been discussed by right judgment, it is established that they are prophetic words, so they ought to be at once believed concerning all things on which they have spoken and answered."

Book VIII, Chapter 61 - Peter continues, "Ignorance of the Philosophers."

“For let us consider carefully the work of divine providence. For whereas the philosophers have introduced certain subtile and difficult words, so that not even the terms that they use in their discourses can be known and understood by all, God has shown that those who thought themselves word-framers are altogether unskilful as respects the knowledge of the truth. For the knowledge of things which is imparted by the true Prophet is simple, and plain, and brief; which those men walking through devious places, and through the stony difficulties of words, are wholly ignorant of. Therefore, to modest and simple minds, when they see things come to pass which have been foretold, it is enough, and more than enough, that they may receive most certain knowledge from most certain prescience; and for the rest may be at peace, having received evident knowledge of the truth. For all other things are treated by opinion, in which there can be nothing firm. For what speech is there which may not be contradicted? And what argument is there that may not be overthrown by another argument? And hence it is, that by disputation of this sort men can never come to any end of knowledge and learning, but find the end of their life sooner than the end of their questions."

Book VIII, Chapter 62 - Peter concludes.

“And, therefore, since amongst these philosophers are things uncertain, we must come to the true Prophet. Him God the Father wished to be loved by all, and accordingly He has been pleased wholly to extinguish those opinions which have originated with men, and in regard to which there is nothing like certainty—that He the true Prophet might be the more sought after, and that He whom they had obscured should show to men the way of truth. For on this account also God made the world, and by Him the world is filled; whence also He is everywhere near to them who seek Him, though He be sought in the remotest ends of the earth. But if any one seek Him not purely, nor holily, nor faithfully, He is indeed within him, because He is everywhere, and is found within the minds of all men; but, as we have said before, He is dormant to the unbelieving, and is held to be absent from those by whom His existence is not believed.” And when Peter had said this, and more to the same effect, concerning the true Prophet, he dismissed the crowds; and when he very earnestly entreated the old man to remain with us, he could prevail nothing; but he also departed, to return next day, as had been agreed upon. And after this, we also, with Peter, went to our lodging, and enjoyed our accustomed food and rest."

Book IX, Chapter 1 - Peter explains.

To this the old man answered: “I both remember what was agreed upon, and I keep in memory the words which you spoke after the agreement was made, in which you taught that it is impossible for man to know any thing, unless he learn from the true Prophet.” Then Peter said: “You do not know what I meant; but I shall now explain to you. I spoke of the will and purpose of God, which He had before the world was, and by which purpose He made the world, appointed times, gave the law, promised a world to come to the righteous for the rewarding of their good deeds, and decreed punishments to the unjust according to a judicial sentence. I said that this counsel and this will of God cannot be found out by men, because no man can gather the mind of God from conjectures and opinion, unless a prophet sent by Him declare it. I did not therefore speak of any doctrines or studies, that they cannot be found out or known without a prophet; for I know that both arts and sciences can be known and practised by men, which they have learned, not from the true Prophet, but from human instructors."

Book IX, Chapter 2 - the old man admits being affected by the speech.

“Now indeed it was not necessary to raise questions of this kind, if it were possible for us to learn from the true Prophet, and to hear in a definite proposition, that anything depends on us and on the freedom of our will; for your yesterday’s discourse affected me greatly, in which you disputed concerning the prophetic power. Whence also I assent to and confirm your judgment, that nothing can be known by man with certainty, and without doubt, seeing that he has but a short period of life, and a brief and slender breath, by which he seems to be kept in life. However, since I am understood to have promised to Clement, before I heard anything of the prophetic power, that I should show that all things are subject to Genesis, or that I should learn from him that there is something in ourselves, let him do me this favour, that he first begin, and propound and explain what may be objected: for I, ever since I heard from you a few words concerning the power of prophecy, have, I confess, been confounded, considering the greatness of prescience; nor do I think that anything ought to be received which is collected from conjectures and opinion.”

The book continues with a refutation of the doctrine of "Genesis" (actions forced by astrological activity), mostly by reference to the different customs of people in different lands. The decisive ending comes when the old man takes his wife as the best example, believing she fulfilled a horoscope by being tossed into the sea after adultery, when his "chaste wife and three sons" are returned to him, alive, after Peter elicited first a promise to renounce the "Genesis" if it be so.

In the conclusion of the work, Clement's father appears to have the face of Simon, and so a scheme is hatched whereby he pretends to be Simon and recants everything he has taught in Antioch. Thus Peter finally triumphs in Antioch, and Simon is driven out, by the deception. And, at last, Clement's father converts.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: An ancient mythicist accusation in Recognitions 8:62

Post by Giuseppe »

Excuse my too much rapid reading of the your posts, but I don't understand your point. Isn't already consensus that the Recognitions include a Jewish-Christian layer on which later catholic layers were added?
Therefore it would be expected to see inconsistencies of the kind ''True Prophet as entirely mythical being versus True Prophet as lived in a specific time and place under Pilate''.
Why the need of the your analysis?

Rather, I wonder about the very cold reception, in this forum, of the Rylands's claimed evidence in Recognitions of the fact that the True Prophet, identified expliciter with the ''aeternal Christ'', appeared already again and again in previous times.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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