The case of L. G. Rylands against the historical Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

The case of L. G. Rylands against the historical Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

In short, the Rylands'case against the historicity of Jesus is the following:

1) the Odes of Solomon are evidence of a pre-christian worship of a suffering mythical Christ not named Jesus (prof Stevan L. Davies agrees entirely).
Other evidence of a celestial Christ not named Jesus is added by Rylands:
Epiphanius says that he had not been able to make out
whether the Christ of the book of the Ossaeans was our Lord
Jesus Christ. Evidently therefore the name Jesus did not
occur in that book. The sect of the Sampsaeans is said to
have remained in existence to a later date than that of the
Ossaeans, but there was evidently no Jesus in their doctrine.
Epiphanius says they were neither Christians nor Jews.
They were, in fact, a Jewish sect, and they were Christians
in the sense that they revered a divine Christ. Certainly,
however, their Christ had no connection with Jesus. The
same may be predicated of the early Gnostic Ebionites;
but, as was previously pointed out, they, or some of them,
did at some time begin to regard Jesus as a manifestation
of the Christ. The same statement may be made concerning
the Naassenes and their allied sects. The name " Jesus "
is found in the Naassene Hymn, but the character of the
fundamental doctrine of the sect renders it practically certain
that the name was not primitive. Origen says that the
Ophites " would not even hear the name of Jesus."
(Beginnings of Gnostic Christianity, p. 146)

2) According to pre-christian sects, this celestial Christ ''had manifested himself only in the persons of certain mythical or semi-mythical characters'' such as Adam, Cain, Abraham, Enoch, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph,and Moses.
" No one knows the Father but the Son and he to whom
the Son may wish to reveal him." The statement is correct ;
for he, being the Son from the beginning, was alone appointed
to give the revelation to those to whom he wishes
to give it
. And thus the first man Adam must have heard
of him, and Enoch, who pleased [God], must have known
him ; and Noah, the righteous one, must have become
acquainted with him, and Abram his friend must have
understood, and Isaac must have perceived him ; and Jacob,
who wrestled with him, must have believed in him ; and the
revelation must have been given to all among the people
who were worthy.
(Homilies 18:13)

My comment: here I have a problem with the Rylands' explanation. He assumes -- doing it not so explicit as I would have liked -- that ''to see Christ'', for these biblical figures, is the same identical thing as ''to have Christ in me'' à la Galatians 1:16 (''To reveal his Son in me''). Only in this way he can allow the idea that these biblical figures were ''Christs'' in their own right insofar they saw him.

3) Applying the inductive hypothesis, there was a sect that wanted that also the biblical Joshua had to be named Christ. That sect was the original Christianity in action before Paul himself.

What is more likely? That that sect did so (it named Christ as Joshua) on the wave of the previous identification of Christ with each biblical figure, or because there was a real Jewish preacher called Joshua of Nazareth?

There is no doubt that the first explanation is more likely than the second one.

Therefore Jesus never existed.


MY COMMENT:
I like a lot the logic behind this case. But I would like to see more evidence of the equation:
revelation of the Christ = possession by the Christ.
I know that that is already a fact according to prof Stevan L. Davies. But which is the evidence that it was a believed fact also for the biblical figures who ''saw'' Christ?

Thank you for any answer.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
FransJVermeiren
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:14 am
Contact:

Re: The case of L. G. Rylands against the historical Jesus

Post by FransJVermeiren »

In my opinion the whole answer is in the first chapter of the fourth gospel, if translated correctly.

For the use of λογος in John 1 see the first paragraph of the Wikipedia-entry ‘Pre-existence of Christ’.

The Dutch scholar Pierre Krijbolder has made a brilliant translation of John 1, presenting a superb alternative for the first two words έν ἀρχη: not the simplistic ‘in the beginning’, but ‘from the beginning (or creation)’ or ‘since the beginning (or creation)'.

So a correct translation of John 1:1-2 is: The Christ existed from the beginning, and He was near to God, the Christ was even God. He was close to God since the creation.
Then verse 14a says: And the Christ became a human being who lived amongst us, full of grace and truth.
The reasoning continues with 17b: Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

So there was a pre-existent Christ who was expected to show himself as a human being. This messianic hope was realized in Jesus. The pivotal date was 70CE, because then Jesus survived his crucifixion. All writings preceding 70 CE speak of this expected Christ, including the letters of Paul and the Letter of James. The letter of James has remained quasi intact, the letters of Paul have been forged profoundly from 'future (and therefore anonymous) Christ' to 'Jesus Christ'.
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
davidbrainerd
Posts: 319
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: The case of L. G. Rylands against the historical Jesus

Post by davidbrainerd »

FransJVermeiren wrote:
So there was a pre-existent Christ who was expected to show himself as a human being. This messianic hope was realized in Jesus. The pivotal date was 70CE, because then Jesus survived his crucifixion. All writings preceding 70 CE speak of this expected Christ, including the letters of Paul and the Letter of James. The letter of James has remained quasi intact, the letters of Paul have been forged profoundly from 'future (and therefore anonymous) Christ' to 'Jesus Christ'.
So where are the non-Christian or unambiguously Jewish pre-70CE writings that speak of this pre-existent Christ if "All writings preceding 70 CE speak of this expected [pre-existent] Christ"? That's what's missing.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The case of L. G. Rylands against the historical Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

So where are the non-Christian or unambiguously Jewish pre-70CE writings that speak of this pre-existent Christ if "All writings preceding 70 CE speak of this expected [pre-existent] Christ"? That's what's missing.
The evidence of a pre-Christian Christ (not named Jesus) seems to be in the Odes of Solomon, or, in the oldest layers of the Recognitions and Pseudo-Clementines.

Sincerely, I give up one for all the idea to inquiry possible men identified with a pre-existing idea of Christ or Jesus-Christ. Their role as mere ''convenient database'' is too much evident. And ''spiritually speaking'', the idea of euhemerizing a spiritual being reducing it to a human being (historical or invented, it doesn't matter) is always a mere effect of the decline of the original religious enthusiasm (docent Price & Couchoud), never at the origin of that enthusiasm.


The Rylands'view in short:
We have now traced the evolution of the dogma of the
Incarnation. It had its root in the teaching of the Wisdom
of Solomon
that Wisdom, a spiritual emanation from God,
passes into holy souls. Then for Wisdom was substituted
the Word, like Wisdom personified, and named the Christ
and Son of God, but really believed to be a formless Spirit,
taking the shape of those in whom he becomes incarnate.
Gradually the personification was more definitely and more
literally conceived. Certain men were thought to have been
exceptional manifestations of the Christ. Then by some Adam
alone was thought to have been, or to have embodied, the
Christ and to have appeared upon earth on several occasions.
Possibly there was a difference of opinion as to whether
Adam was identical with the Christ or whether the Christ
assumed the body of Adam when he wished to visit the
earth. Finally Jesus was substituted for Adam as the
vehicle. Epiphanius says of the Ebionites who believed that
the Christ had appeared in the body of Adam that at other
times " when they wished " they said : " No ; but the Spirit
which is the Christ came and clothed himself in the body of
Jesus." We may safely infer that these contrary opinions
were not held by anyone simultaneously, but that among
the Ebionites the befief that the Christ had been incarnate in
Adam was gradually replaced by the belief either that he
had been incarnate in Jesus or that the incarnation in Jesus
was a subsequent and recent one; just as the Peratai believed
that in the days of Herod the Logos had descended in the
form of the Patriarch Joseph, whose visible body may not
have been supposed to be a material one. So far the
doctrine even in its latest stage is Gnostic. The Gnostic
Cerinthus, or his followers, taught that the Christ descended
into Jesus at his baptism and left him again before the
Crucifixion. But as Christianity became popular these
Gnostic subtleties fell into disfavour. Pagan converts could
more easily accommodate themselves to the simple and
more familiar idea that a divine being became man. And
the dogma of "expiation" required that the Son of God
should suffer in the flesh. Consequently the doctrine which
remained victorious in the second century was the Catholic
doctrine that Jesus is the Christ and Son of God.
(p. 144-145)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: The case of L. G. Rylands against the historical Jesus

Post by iskander »

We have now traced the evolution of the dogma of the Incarnation
The Incarnation is a way of relating to the man one admires just as the wedding is a way of relating to the woman one admires. Some have said men marry when they are no longer lovers, or something like that.
Post Reply