Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:38 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:21 am
mlinssen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:31 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:57 am
So, what the text literally says, is

μάθετε, ὅτι τοὺς
δεκαοκτὼ πρώ
τους καὶ διάστη
μα ποιήσας λέγει
τριακοσίους τὸ
δεκαοκτὼ ἔχεις
IN

disciple, so-that the
eighteen fi-
rst and - inter-
val produced - said
three hundred the
eighteen holds
IN
Your translation is a little hard to follow. What do you think the meaning of this passage is, overall? What is being said? How, for example, is "interval produced" functioning in the sentence?
I would think so, but that is what it reads, literally translated.
Well, what I am referring to is that, for example, you have a noun ("disciple") where the Greek has a verb (μάθετε, plural imperative), "so that" in a context where ὅτι would usually just be plain "that" (without the meaning of intent or purpose suggested by "so that"), "produced" for ποιήσας (which is ambiguous as to whether ποιήσας would be the participle or a past tense verb), and "holds" translating the second person singular, which in English is "hold," without the final s, so I was not sure how literal you were being.
It was a quickie for sure!

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:47 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:23 am
That depends on the answer to my previous question. What does yod het shin mean in Hebrew, and how does it then relate to Jesus? That part is unclear to me at present.
I have no idea what it means in Hebrew, I've asked around plenty. Different meanings to the letters, not sure anyone has even tried to give meaning to the TLA

But your question is interesting. It's not how it then relates to Jesus, it's just that IHS is a so-called Nomen Sacrum, which could be related to Genesis and Abraham in this way, just for fun or for any other reason really

Again, forget everything, and pretend you're a Christian Jew reading the Hebrew Genesis about Abraham: you'd be thrilled with this blatantly obvious (cough) pointer to Jesus!

Strictly considering IHS as a symbol of course, not an abbreviation or anything, certainly not something that is limited to the Greek or Coptic language

So, again, I'm totally out of control here, taking it far out of context

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:09 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:47 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:23 am
That depends on the answer to my previous question. What does yod het shin mean in Hebrew, and how does it then relate to Jesus? That part is unclear to me at present.
I have no idea what it means in Hebrew, I've asked around plenty. Different meanings to the letters....
How many different meanings, more or less? Do some of them look promising?
But your question is interesting. It's not how it then relates to Jesus, it's just that IHS is a so-called Nomen Sacrum....
In Greek, yes; but, again, the actual nomen sacrum ΙΗΣ does not appear in the verse. ΙΝ does, but not ΙΗΣ. And the number stated, 318, implies ΤΙΗ, at least at first glance.

According to Swete, the LXX text of Genesis 14.14 in codex Cottonianus has δέκα καὶ ὀκτώ καὶ τριακοσίους ("ten and eight and three hundred" = 318), and we know that Barnabas 9.8 has δεκαοκτὼ καὶ τριακοσίους ("eighteen and three hundred" = 318). So at least one of the textual trees must have had the numerals in this transposed order.

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:23 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:09 pm
[In Greek, yes; but, again, the actual nomen sacrum ΙΗΣ does not appear in the verse. ΙΝ does, but not ΙΗΣ. And the number stated, 318, implies ΤΙΗ, at least at first glance.
Okay. Once more, with feeling

You're living in the first centuries CE

Go to the tavern, get completely wasted, pick a fight, black out, and then the next afternoon, read Genesis 14:14 in Hebrew

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/14-14.htm

Then look at the ΙΗΣ all around you, and have your eureka moment "holy mackerel! 8 10 300, Yod Het Shin!!! Straight from Genesis, and our great great great grandfather Abraham - it's the same sign all around us! By Jove!!!

This is all really very awkward, isn't it? Forget about Barnabas, his text, just focus on Genesis 14:14 in Hebrew, the nomina sacra all around you, and pretend that you (don't?) see a sign in it

Then get back to the discussion, and say "ah yes I get what you mean, geez that's actually very far off-topic don't you think?". And then I say "well Yyes, -ish; but how about that?" and then you say "I get your second intention too now, that's a perfectly missed opportunity, Barnabas sure as hack botched that - not to mention his queer IN, and the 318 instead of 8 10 300!"
"Yes, indeed"...

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:33 pm

https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Gramm ... d/yod.html

Tons more like that, I'm reluctant to get into it all, I'm fairly sure that thousands of meanings have been given to letters in equally as many years.

It's one of my pet projects on the side: next to dating Thomas, I want to know what his IS means, and why he uses IHS in logion 13, 22 and 90. They must signify beginning and end, so the Yod I dig as miniscule start of everything, and fire being the end is also obvious with Thomas' CITE COTE CATE, and the H must stand for House, HI. But why does Thomas use IHS there? Three times ... and three sayings or words he says, likely Father, Child, (Holy) Spirt. Is 13 how you meet the father, 22 the child, and 90 the spirit?

Forget about the Greek, I consider those sloppy copies, at least compared to the Coptic - that, on a side note

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:39 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:23 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:09 pm
[In Greek, yes; but, again, the actual nomen sacrum ΙΗΣ does not appear in the verse. ΙΝ does, but not ΙΗΣ. And the number stated, 318, implies ΤΙΗ, at least at first glance.
Okay. Once more, with feeling

You're living in the first centuries CE

Go to the tavern, get completely wasted, pick a fight, black out, and then the next afternoon, read Genesis 14:14 in Hebrew

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/14-14.htm

Then look at the ΙΗΣ all around you, and have your eureka moment "holy mackerel! 8 10 300, Yod Het Shin!!! Straight from Genesis, and our great great great grandfather Abraham - it's the same sign all around us! By Jove!!!

This is all really very awkward, isn't it? Forget about Barnabas, his text, just focus on Genesis 14:14 in Hebrew, the nomina sacra all around you, and pretend that you (don't?) see a sign in it
The connection I am not seeing is between yod-het-shin and any of the nomina sacra. I mean, if it were even yod-heh-shin (with a heh instead of a het), that could at least give us ΙΗΣ in Greek (the heh implying the ēta, which it certainly can do). But het? That would be Greek chi (Χ), and I am not sure what ΙΧΣ would mean.

If we are allowed to interpret any letter in Hebrew with any letter in Greek we want (on the grounds that the author was suffering from a massive hangover, or what have you), then the whole world is open to us and we can do anything with nothing. But it sounds to me like you are seeing a particular connection between יחש and ΙΗΣ that I am not seeing yet. Yod to iota? That works. Shin to sigma? That works too. Het to ēta? That one needs to be explained to me. Maybe I am wrong about the level of connection you are seeing.

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by Ethan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:27 pm

Persians shaped tombs into crosses and Cyrus Christ (Isa 45:1) was crucified.

Diodorus Siculus 2.44.2
For instance, when Cyrus the king of the Persians, the mightiest ruler of his day, made a campaign with a vast army into Scythia, the queen of the Scythians not only cut the army of the Persians to pieces but she even took Cyrus prisoner and crucified him.

τὸν Κῦρον αἰχμάλωτον γενόμενον ἀνεσταύρωσε

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:39 pm
mlinssen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:23 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:09 pm
[In Greek, yes; but, again, the actual nomen sacrum ΙΗΣ does not appear in the verse. ΙΝ does, but not ΙΗΣ. And the number stated, 318, implies ΤΙΗ, at least at first glance.
Okay. Once more, with feeling

You're living in the first centuries CE

Go to the tavern, get completely wasted, pick a fight, black out, and then the next afternoon, read Genesis 14:14 in Hebrew

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/14-14.htm

Then look at the ΙΗΣ all around you, and have your eureka moment "holy mackerel! 8 10 300, Yod Het Shin!!! Straight from Genesis, and our great great great grandfather Abraham - it's the same sign all around us! By Jove!!!

This is all really very awkward, isn't it? Forget about Barnabas, his text, just focus on Genesis 14:14 in Hebrew, the nomina sacra all around you, and pretend that you (don't?) see a sign in it
The connection I am not seeing is between yod-het-shin and any of the nomina sacra. I mean, if it were even yod-heh-shin (with a heh instead of a het), that could at least give us ΙΗΣ in Greek (the heh implying the ēta, which it certainly can do). But het? That would be Greek chi (Χ), and I am not sure what ΙΧΣ would mean.

If we are allowed to interpret any letter in Hebrew with any letter in Greek we want (on the grounds that the author was suffering from a massive hangover, or what have you), then the whole world is open to us and we can do anything with nothing. But it sounds to me like you are seeing a particular connection between יחש and ΙΗΣ that I am not seeing yet. Yod to iota? That works. Shin to sigma? That works too. Het to ēta? That one needs to be explained to me. Maybe I am wrong about the level of connection you are seeing.
Heh indeed, not het - which is the Dutch form for "it", by the way. See, my Hebrew ain't too good. Then we end up with 5 versus 8, and my whole scheme falls apart LOL

Sorry, brainless moment there
Last edited by mlinssen on Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:47 pm

mlinssen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 pm
Heh indeed, not het - which is the Dutch form for "it", by the way
Okay, then where did the 318 come from? Yod-heh-shin would imply 315, right?

ETA: Okay, you edited your post, and then mine crossed with yours.

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Re: Trees, crosses, and outstretched hands.

Post by mlinssen » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:15 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:47 pm
mlinssen wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 pm
Heh indeed, not het - which is the Dutch form for "it", by the way
Okay, then where did the 318 come from? Yod-heh-shin would imply 315, right?

ETA: Okay, you edited your post, and then mine crossed with yours.
Yes, dead end there. Back to Barnabas and his impossible math of 18 and 300 having anything to do with IN, which is 10 and 50...

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