Another possible argument for Marcionite priority over Luke.

[Ben C. Smith]

Mark famously calls Galilee's main body of water a sea (θάλασσα), against all common sense. Matthew follows this Marcan usage. Luke, however, never calls this body of water a sea, always referring to it more properly as a lake (λίμνη).

This difference of vocabulary can be seen most vividly in the account of Jesus calming the storm:

Mark 4.35-41: 35 On that day, when evening came, He says to them, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd, they take Him along with them in the boat, just as He was; and other boats were with Him. 37 And there arises a fierce gale of wind, and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up. 38 Jesus Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they wake Him and say to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?” 39 And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea [θαλάσσῃ], “Hush, be still.” And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. 40 And He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?” 41 They became very much afraid and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea [θάλασσα] obey Him?”

Luke 8.22-25: 22 Now on one of those days Jesus and His disciples got into a boat, and He said to them, “Let us go over to the other side of the lake [λίμνης].” So they launched out. 23 But as they were sailing along He fell asleep; and a fierce gale of wind descended on the lake [λίμνην], and they began to be swamped and to be in danger. 24 They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, “Master, Master, we are perishing!” And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves [κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος], and they stopped, and it became calm. 25 And He said to them, “Where is your faith?” They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water [ὕδατι], and they obey Him?”

However, Marcion is attested as mentioning the sea here. Tertullian attests (the standard Latin translation of) this word at Against Marcion 4.20.1: "Who then is this man who commands both the winds and the sea [mari]?" This attestation is all the more meaningful since Tertullian immediately turns around and, in his own words, describes in the same context the bodies of water in Palestine as "the lakes" or "pools of Judea" (stagna Iudaeae). Epiphanius also attests "sea" instead of "lake" for the Marcionite gospel in Panarion 42.11.6: "As they sailed he fell asleep. Then he arose and rebuked the wind and the sea [θαλάσσῃ]."

If Marcion simply truncated the gospel of Luke, then we have on our hands an interesting sequence (on most theories of synoptic interrelations) whereby Mark wrote (inaccurately) of the sea, Luke changed this (more accurately) to a lake with waves of water, and then Marcion (inaccurately) changed it back again to the sea. Why would Marcion do this? Does it not make a bit more sense to suppose that the texts which speak of the sea preceded canonical Luke, which changed it to a lake, possibly so as to avoid criticisms such as those later leveled against the gospels by the likes of Porphyry?

Ben.

[iskander]

34:11 The boundary shall then run southward from Shefam to Rivlah to the east of Eyin. Continuing to the south, the boundary shall run along the eastern shore of the Kinnereth Sea.
Veyarad hagevul miShfam haRivlah mikedem la'Ayin veyarad hagvul umachah al-ketef Yam-Kineret kedmah

Numbers » Mas'ey
http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp? ... portion=43


Mark calls it , the sea of Galilee (Yam-Kinneret) as the Torah also does in Numbers 34 :11, as Spin points out in this post.

Num 34:11 talks of the Sea of Kinneret (ים כנרת) which is rendered in the LXX θαλασσα κεναρα, ie Sea of Kenara.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=384&hilit=kinneret&start=50

[Ben C. Smith]

Num 34:11 talks of the Sea of Kinneret (ים כנרת) which is rendered in the LXX θαλασσα κεναρα, ie Sea of Kenara.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=384&hilit=kinneret&start=50

I agree that is probably the (or at least a) reason Mark uses the term. It is essentially a Semitism, possibly mediated by the LXX.

[iskander]

Yes ,Yam is taken from the way the torah taught the Israelites .

Marcion may have used this term as a 'Semitism' . Luke was goy, I believe

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

If Marcion simply truncated the gospel of Luke, then we have on our hands an interesting sequence (on most theories of synoptic interrelations) whereby Mark wrote (inaccurately) of the sea, Luke changed this (more accurately) to a lake with waves of water, and then Marcion (inaccurately) changed it back again to the sea. Why would Marcion do this? Does it not make a bit more sense to suppose that the texts which speak of the sea preceded canonical Luke, which changed it to a lake, possibly so as to avoid criticisms such as those later leveled against the gospels by the likes of Porphyry?

Agreed. Further examples with the same argument could be

Luke 9.18-27, who do you say that I am, the first passion prediction, take up your cross, finding and losing, before my father.

18 Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν προσευχόμενον κατὰ μόνας συνῆσαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταί, καὶ ἐπηρώτησεν αὐτοὺς λέγων Τίνα με οἱ ὄχλοι [Marcion: οἱ ἄνθρωποι] λέγουσιν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, εἶναι; 19 οἱ δὲ ἀποκριθέντες εἶπαν Ἰωάνην τὸν Βαπτιστήν, ἄλλοι δὲ Ἡλείαν, ἄλλοι δὲ ὅτι προφήτης τις τῶν ἀρχαίων ἀνέστη. 20 εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς Ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι; Πέτρος δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Τὸν Χριστὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ [Marcion: σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστός]. 21 ὁ δὲ ἐπιτιμήσας αὐτοῖς παρήγγειλεν μηδενὶ λέγειν τοῦτο, 22 εἰπὼν ὅτι Δεῖ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ [Marcion: μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας] ἐγερθῆναι. 23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ’ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι. 24 ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι, ἀπολέσει αὐτήν· ὃς δ’ [Marcion: καὶ ὅς] ἂν ἀπολέσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν [Marcion: αὐτὴν] αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ, οὗτος σώσει αὐτήν. 25 τί γὰρ ὠφελεῖται ἄνθρωπος κερδήσας τὸν κόσμον ὅλον ἑαυτὸν δὲ ἀπολέσας ἢ ζημιωθείς; 26 ὃς γὰρ ἂν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους, τοῦτον ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται [Marcion: κἀγὼ ἐπαισχυνθήσομαι αὐτόν], ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων. 27 λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ἀληθῶς, εἰσίν τινες τῶν αὐτοῦ ἑστηκότων οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ.

18 As he was praying alone, the disciples were with him, and he asked them, “Who do the multitudes [Marcion: men] say that I, the son of man, am?” 19 They answered, “‘John the Baptizer,’ but others say, ‘Elijah,’ and others, that one of the old prophets has risen again.” 20 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God [Marcion: you are the Christ].” 21 But he warned them, and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.” 23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but [Marcion: and] whoever will lose his life [Marcion: it] for my sake, will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self? 26 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man [Marcion: I] be ashamed, when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here who will in no way taste of death until they see God’s Kingdom.”

[Ben C. Smith]

If Marcion simply truncated the gospel of Luke, then we have on our hands an interesting sequence (on most theories of synoptic interrelations) whereby Mark wrote (inaccurately) of the sea, Luke changed this (more accurately) to a lake with waves of water, and then Marcion (inaccurately) changed it back again to the sea. Why would Marcion do this? Does it not make a bit more sense to suppose that the texts which speak of the sea preceded canonical Luke, which changed it to a lake, possibly so as to avoid criticisms such as those later leveled against the gospels by the likes of Porphyry?

Agreed. Further examples with the same argument could be

Luke 9.18-27, who do you say that I am, the first passion prediction, take up your cross, finding and losing, before my father.

18 Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν προσευχόμενον κατὰ μόνας συνῆσαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταί, καὶ ἐπηρώτησεν αὐτοὺς λέγων Τίνα με οἱ ὄχλοι [Marcion: οἱ ἄνθρωποι] λέγουσιν, τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, εἶναι; 19 οἱ δὲ ἀποκριθέντες εἶπαν Ἰωάνην τὸν Βαπτιστήν, ἄλλοι δὲ Ἡλείαν, ἄλλοι δὲ ὅτι προφήτης τις τῶν ἀρχαίων ἀνέστη. 20 εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς Ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι; Πέτρος δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Τὸν Χριστὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ [Marcion: σὺ εἶ ὁ Χριστός]. 21 ὁ δὲ ἐπιτιμήσας αὐτοῖς παρήγγειλεν μηδενὶ λέγειν τοῦτο, 22 εἰπὼν ὅτι Δεῖ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ [Marcion: μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας] ἐγερθῆναι. 23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ’ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι. 24 ὃς γὰρ ἐὰν θέλῃ τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ σῶσαι, ἀπολέσει αὐτήν· ὃς δ’ [Marcion: καὶ ὅς] ἂν ἀπολέσῃ τὴν ψυχὴν [Marcion: αὐτὴν] αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ, οὗτος σώσει αὐτήν. 25 τί γὰρ ὠφελεῖται ἄνθρωπος κερδήσας τὸν κόσμον ὅλον ἑαυτὸν δὲ ἀπολέσας ἢ ζημιωθείς; 26 ὃς γὰρ ἂν ἐπαισχυνθῇ με καὶ τοὺς ἐμοὺς λόγους, τοῦτον ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπαισχυνθήσεται [Marcion: κἀγὼ ἐπαισχυνθήσομαι αὐτόν], ὅταν ἔλθῃ ἐν τῇ δόξῃ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τῶν ἁγίων ἀγγέλων. 27 λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ἀληθῶς, εἰσίν τινες τῶν αὐτοῦ ἑστηκότων οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ.

18 As he was praying alone, the disciples were with him, and he asked them, “Who do the multitudes [Marcion: men] say that I, the son of man, am?” 19 They answered, “‘John the Baptizer,’ but others say, ‘Elijah,’ and others, that one of the old prophets has risen again.” 20 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God [Marcion: you are the Christ].” 21 But he warned them, and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.” 23 He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but [Marcion: and] whoever will lose his life [Marcion: it] for my sake, will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits his own self? 26 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man [Marcion: I] be ashamed, when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here who will in no way taste of death until they see God’s Kingdom.”

Those do look similar. They will require checking against the sources.

[Secret Alias]

Why is Tertullian citing Marcion's gospel rather than his own gospel? How many times do we stand in the same bloody place? Where is the evidence that this is Marcion's gospel? Why can't this be considered to be a conversation in another language completely where both participants are engaging two texts that are no longer extant and that the conversation was essentially 'modernized' (i.e. made to reference Luke) by Irenaeus? Criddle accepts that proposition. He's a smart guy. I don't get where Tertullian is saying 'it's Marcion's gospel here' anywhere in the discussion and having read enough Irenaeus I know that he rarely tells us 'hey I am going to my gospel while trashing person X's interpretation' but he does it anyway.

The best analogy is when kids from rich neighborhoods (like the one I live in on the Eastside of Seattle where parents are mostly Microsoft, Boeing, Amazon employees) go to play soccer against the poorer Hispanic neighborhoods. My son's best friend happens to be Brazilian and he makes reference to the phenomenon as follows (paraphrased):

There is this kid on my son's team. He asks for the ball 'Can I have the ball please' you know please and thank you. But we need someone like from the Mexican kids. They take the ball, they are not afraid of playing dirty.

My point is that all these discussions about Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem assume that he was playing by rules of civility - that when setting forth to do a comparison of Luke versus the Marcionite gospel that he would do so 'in good sportsmanship.' But the soccer players that make it don't engage in good sportsmanship. The coaches say 'hey play fair' but one of the three metrics for evaluating kids is 'aggression' which basically amounts to 'winning the ball.'

I often think that academics can't take themselves out of the things they are studying. That Tertullian and Irenaeus weren't 'playing fair' they weren't purporting to do what they claimed they were doing - i.e. giving a fair hearing to the other side or even doing what they were saying they were doing in this case 'comparing' their gospel of Luke to Marcion. Indeed where is it made explicit what Tertullian was doing? But the reason that they go along with the idea that the Church Fathers are reliable witnesses or at least reliable enough for us to gain some knowledge from their texts is that we as scholars want to write things. I want to compare Marcion's gospel to gospel X so for that I cite Tertullian. That's nice but what kind of a bullshit argument is that?

Is Tertullian citing Marcion's gospel here? Ummmm I don't know. Well, what are you comparing then, what are the two things you are comparing if you aren't sure Tertullian is actually citing Marcion? But I want to compare Marcion's gospel to gospel X Oh ok, build a time machine.

[Peter Kirby]

Thanks, Ben. I have also noticed a few more points lately.

I will be glad to add this one to the list.

[andrewcriddle]

Since the precise words used in Marcion's Evangelium are not relevant to the point being made, I'm wondering whether a harmonised text similar to the reading here of the Diatessaron is being recalled by the writer.

And he said to them on that day in the evening, Let us go over to the other side of the lake; and he left the multitudes. And Jesus went up and sat in the ship, he and his disciples, and there were with them other ships. And there occurred on the sea a great tempest of whirlwind and wind, and the ship was on the point of sinking from the greatness of the waves. But Jesus was sleeping on a cushion in the stern of the ship; and his disciples came and awoke him, and said unto him, Our Lord, save us; lo, we perish. And he rose, and rebuked the winds and the turbulence of the water, and said to the sea, Be still, for thou art rebuked; and the wind was still, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye thus afraid? and why have ye no faith? And they feared greatly. And they marvelled, and said one to another, Who, think you, is this, who commandeth also the wind and the waves and the sea, and they obey him?

Andrew Criddle

[Bernard Muller]

According to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&start=20#p39332 "third day" would show in the Marcionite gospel in a verse corresponding to Lk 24:7. But did Tertullian (or Epiphanius or others) quote gMarcion or memorize (sometimes inaccurately) gLuke? Same comment for "after three days" corresponding to Lk 9:22, or any wording not according to the corresponding one in gLuke but not identified as a quote from gMarcion.
Same comments for "lake" and "sea" in verses corresponding to Lk 8:23, 24 & 25 according to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765#p39313

Cordially, Bernard