Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:Ch 37:

Celsus, moreover, thinks that we have invented this "tree of life" to give an allegorical meaning to the cross; and in consequence of his error upon this point, he adds: "If he had happened to be cast down a precipice, or shoved into a pit, or suffocated by hanging, there would have been invented a precipice of life far beyond the heavens, or a pit of resurrection, or a cord of immortality." And again: "If the 'tree of life' were an invention, because he--Jesus-- (is reported) to have been a carpenter, it would follow that if he had been a leather-cutter, something would have been said about holy leather; or had he been a stone-cutter, about a blessed stone; or if a worker in iron, about an iron of love." [/list]

The second highlighted quote isn't relevant to your question, but it's the previously mentioned 'zinger' that I like. (Also repeated in longer form in Ch 34).
Yessssss, that is one of my favorite things from Celsus. :D
My suspicion was always that Paul's job as "tent maker" has also this allegorical meaning ;)

Mark 9:5 And Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents (ποιήσωμεν τρεῖς σκηνάς), one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”Acts 18:2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, 3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers (σκηνοποιοὶ) by trade.

outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote:an hypothetical Gnostic proto-Mark : Jesus is apparently the Demiurgos
Mark: Jesus is apparently the Carpenter
Matthew: Jesus is the son of the Carpenter
later Christians: Jesus is the presumed son of a carpenter.

.
You lack the education to place this into context. Tekton meant displaced agrarian peasant who did work by hand and they often were people who lost their leased farms. There were people below that of the common peasant.

Mark makes his statement and the LATER text tried to sort of hide this lessening the partial insult earlier disclosed by Markan text
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by outhouse »

Garon wrote:Handyman is better interpretation then carpenter.
Yes true. But it is more defined in context as stated in reply above
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by outhouse »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:My suspicion was always that Paul's job as "tent maker" has also this allegorical meaning
If it was, they would have went out of their way to make it more then literal in this context.
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote:''carpenter'' (allegory of the Creator god)

.
seems imaginative, and no real evidence for said context
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by outhouse »

Aslan told The Huffington Post, “If the Gospels are correct that he was from a village called Nazareth, and that he came from a family of tekton (woodworkers or builders), what that means is that he was the poorest of the poor. The word tekton was actually a term of abuse among the Romans, who used it as slang for an uncouth or illiterate peasant.”
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by Giuseppe »

outhouse wrote:Aslan told The Huffington Post, “If the Gospels are correct that he was from a village called Nazareth, and that he came from a family of tekton (woodworkers or builders), what that means is that he was the poorest of the poor. The word tekton was actually a term of abuse among the Romans, who used it as slang for an uncouth or illiterate peasant.”
There is no evidence of this, while there is a lot of evidence that 'son of carpenter', in the immediate context where it is used in the Gospels, points to a clear symbolic/ironical opposition between the mere appearance (being a mere son of carpenter) and the theological meaning (being the Son of God, beyond if the God of the Jews is meant here).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
outhouse
Posts: 3577
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote:
outhouse wrote:Aslan told The Huffington Post, “If the Gospels are correct that he was from a village called Nazareth, and that he came from a family of tekton (woodworkers or builders), what that means is that he was the poorest of the poor. The word tekton was actually a term of abuse among the Romans, who used it as slang for an uncouth or illiterate peasant.”
There is no evidence of this, while there is a lot of evidence that 'son of carpenter', in the immediate context where it is used in the Gospels, points to a clear symbolic/ironical opposition between the mere appearance (being a mere son of carpenter) and the theological meaning (being the Son of God, beyond if the God of the Jews is meant here).
Only in your imagination, and no where else.

Aslans description is well known
the Romans, who used it as slang for an uncouth or illiterate peasant
It is also backed by many archeologist and scholars Johnathon Reed, and Lawrence Schiffman as well calls Galilean fishermen a wrung below that of the common peasant.

You can refuse cultural anthropology all you like
Garon
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:33 am

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by Garon »

"My suspicion was always that Paul's job as "tent maker" has also this allegorical meaning" ;) Rocco Errico translation of Paul's job (from the Aramaic Peshetta) is "Saddle Maker" not "tent maker."
User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: Where does Origen deny that Jesus is Carpenter?

Post by arnoldo »

GakuseiDon wrote: . . The second highlighted quote isn't relevant to your question, but it's the previously mentioned 'zinger' that I like. (Also repeated in longer form in Ch 34).
I like this zinger.
Porphyry described Origen as one who “drove headlong toward barbarian recklessness,” adopted a “Christian way of life, contrary to the law,” and in his allegorical interpretation of the Bible, fruitlessly “Introduced Greek ideas into foreign myths.” Both Origen and his critic portray the distinction between Christianity and philosophy in ethnic terms. Gregory, too, seems to distinguish between philosophy, which is Greek, and “foreign” Christianity. The emphasis, intriguingly, is not on content, but on origins.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php? ... 0674030480

Post Reply