Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and M

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:01 pm

Compare:

Luke 1.1-4: 1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word have handed them down to us, 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in orderly sequence [καθεξῆς], most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

Acts 11.4: 4 But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence [καθεξῆς], saying....

Peter's speech in Acts 11.5-17 proceeds in a naturally chronological order, with one remembered flashback in verse 16. If the analogy with Luke 1.3 holds, I suggest that καθεξῆς in the context of a narrative account, at least, can imply a chronological order.

ETA: That is, although terms like καθεξῆς are capable of implying a literary order other than strict chronology, they may still imply a chronological order as the most appropriate kind of literary order for narratives.
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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:28 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 8:33 am
The background here is Papias, whose elder (John) apparently asserted that the gospel of Mark was out of order in some way.
just as an addendum
This already amazed me ... seem to be just common phrases of that time :popcorn:

Josephus AJ 1.17 Papias (Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.1-17)
As I proceed, therefore, I shall accurately describe what is contained in our records, in the order that belongs to them; for I have already promised so to do throughout this undertaking; and this without adding any thing to what is therein contained, or taking away any thing therefrom. And the elder would say this: Mark, who had become the interpreter of Peter, wrote accurately, yet not in order, as many things as he remembered of the things either said or done by the Lord. For he neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but later, as I said, Peter, who would make the teachings to the needs, but not making them as an ordering together of the lordly oracles, so that Mark did not sin having thus written certain things as he remembered them. For he made one provision, to leave out nothing of the things that he heard or falsify anything in them.
τὰ μὲν οὖν ἀκριβῆ τῶν ἐν ταῖς ἀναγραφαῖς προϊὼν ὁ λόγος κατὰ τὴν οἰκείαν τάξιν σημανεῖ: τοῦτο γὰρ διὰ ταύτης ποιήσειν τῆς πραγματείας ἐπηγγειλάμην οὐδὲν προσθεὶς οὐδ᾽ αὖ παραλιπών. Και τουθ ο πρεσβυτερος ελεγεν· Μαρκος μεν ερμηνευτης Πετρου γενομενος, οσα εμνημονευσεν ακριβως εγραψεν, ου μεντοι ταξει, τα υπο του κυριου η λεχθεντα η πραχθεντα. ουτε γαρ ηκουσεν του κυριου ουτε παρηκολουθησεν αυτω, υστερον δε, ως εφην, Πετρω, ος προς τας χρειας εποιειτο τας διδασκαλιας, αλλ ουχ ωσπερ συνταξιν των κυριακων ποιουμενος λογιων, ωστε ουδεν ημαρτεν Μαρκος ουτως ενια γραψας ως απεμνημοσευσεν. ενος γαρ εποιησατο προνοιαν, του μηδεν ων ηκουσεν παραλιπειν η ψευσασθαι τι εν αυτοις


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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:09 am

Irenaeus edited both. My guess.
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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and M

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:33 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:27 pm
This idea also lies behind Stephen Carlson's translation of the verb προγεγράφθαι in Clement's comments (referred to above) as "published openly" (not "written beforehand"): Matthew and Luke were ready for publication, while Mark was still just a set of notes, handed out for the needs of Peter's audience.
(How far this early Christian impression of the gospel of Mark reflects the author's intentions is open for discussion, obviously.)
Markus Vinzent in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels puts forth the argument that Markion had written an unpublished gospel of which later writers used as a template and was incorporated into published gospels/NT. It was at that point that Markion then published his Gospel with the Apostolikon and prefaced with the ANtithesis.

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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:09 am
Irenaeus edited both. My guess.
Proper "order" was a trope:

Lucian, How to Write History 47-48: 47 As to the facts themselves, [the historian] should not assemble them at random, but only after much laborious and painstaking investigation. He should for preference be an eyewitness, but, if not, listen to those who tell the more impartial story, those whom one would suppose least likely to subtract from the facts or add to them out of favor or malice. When this happens let him show shrewdness and skill in putting together the more credible story. 48 When he has collected all or most of the facts, let him first make them into a series of notes, a body of material as yet with no beauty or continuity. Then, after arranging them into order [τάξιν], let him give it beauty and enhance it with the charms of expression, figure, and rhythm.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus, On Thucydides 9 (Loeb translation): What need I say further? The whole of the book is broken up in this way, and continuity of narrative is destroyed. Predictably, we wander here and there, and have difficulty in following the sequence of events described, because our mind is confused by their separation and cannot easily or accurately recall the half-completed references which it has heard. But history should be presented as an uninterrupted sequence of events [χρὴ δὲ τὴν ἱστορικὴν πραγματείαν εἰρομένην εἶναι καὶ ἀπερίσπαστον], particularly when it is concerned with a large number of them which are difficult to comprehend. It is clear that Thucydides’ principle is wrong and ill-suited to history: for no subsequent historian divided up his narrative by summers and winters, but all followed the well-worn roads which lead to clarity.

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 am

Seems reasonable.
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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:39 am

But on a separate note - can you think of anything more unlikely than an Aramaic speaking Jewish revolutionary leader learning Greek and writing a history of the Jewish people in imitation of Dionysius of Halicarnassus's Roman History and mastering Attic prose in the process! Zero percent chance that ever happened. As such Jewish Antiquities is a pseudepigraphal work. No doubt in my mind. Don't have many better explanations for an origin of this work. But there is a chronology under the name of Josephus which published 147 CE. We've went over this before. Not sure how they line up. But the Jewish general in the revolutionary war DID NOT write this tome.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:44 am

And I don't have much faith in academics to decide what is and isn't possible in the 'real world' given my interactions with academics on Facebook! They have no clue or little clue what the average person thinks, feels or is capable of accomplishing. Facebook has ruined my opinion of academics interminably. That's probably why they use pseudonyms here too. Have to hide their blind spots from everyone. In summa: I admire and respect the observation of academics. Not so much their conclusions because they don't live in the real world. The live instead in a place with 'him' 'her' and 'it' pronouns.
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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:09 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 am
Proper "order" was a trope:
I would guess it was also a technical term among ancient historians as well as "accurately" and probably also "leaving out"

(I found the following)

a whole book:
Taxis: The Organization of Thucydides' History
Carolyn Jones Dewald
University Microfilms, 1982 - 270 Seiten


Herodotus is the focus of U. Fantasia’s study of ἀτρεκής, since he is the only historian to make frequent use of the term (in later historians, beginning with Thucydides, ἀκριβής is employed instead, with slightly different connotations).


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Re: Ancient notices of the differences between Matthew and Mark?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:12 pm

How can Papias speak of 'accuracy' when he openly embraces hearsay testimony? It's mind-boggling how unreliable these testimonies are?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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