Are these the same people?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Are these the same people?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

1.

1 Corinthians 1.12: 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I [am] of Apollos,” and “I [am] of Cephas,” and “I [am] of Christ.”

Notice: not "I am of Jesus Christ," but "I am of Christ."
2.

1 Corinthians 12.3: Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Are there some Christ devotees here who reject any connection to a personage named Jesus?

Ben.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Are these the same people?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Origen, Against Celsus 6.28:

With some such object as this in view does Celsus seem to have been actuated, when he alleged that Christians term the Creator an accursed divinity; in order that he who believes these charges of his against us, should, if possible, arise and exterminate the Christians as the most impious of mankind. Confusing, moreover, things that are distinct, he states also the reason why the God of the Mosaic cosmogony is termed accursed, asserting that such is his character, and worthy of execration in the opinion of those who so regard him, inasmuch as he pronounced a curse upon the serpent, who introduced the first human beings to the knowledge of good and evil. Now he ought to have known that those who have espoused the cause of the serpent, because he gave good advice to the first human beings, and who go far beyond the Titans and Giants of fable, and are on this account called Ophites [Ὀφιανοὶ], are so far from being Christians, that they bring accusations against Jesus to as great a degree as Celsus himself; and they do not admit any one into their assembly until he has uttered maledictions against Jesus [οὐκ ἔλαττον Κέλσου κατηγορεῖν αὐτοὺς τοῦ Ἰησοῦ καὶ μὴ πρότερον προσίεσθαί τινα ἐπὶ τὸ συνέδριον ἑαυτῶν, ἐὰν μὴ ἀρὰς θῆται κατὰ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ]. See, then, how irrational is the procedure of Celsus, who, in his discourse against the Christians, represents as such those who will not even listen to the name of Jesus, or omit even that He was a wise man, or a person of virtuous character! What, then, could evince greater folly or madness, not only on the part of those who wish to derive their name from the serpent as the author of good, but also on the part of Celsus, who thinks that the accusations with which the Ophites are charged, are chargeable also against the Christians! Long ago, indeed, that Greek philosopher who preferred a state of poverty, and who exhibited the pattern of a happy life, showing that he was not excluded from happiness although he was possessed of nothing, termed himself a Cynic; while these impious wretches, as not being human beings, whose enemy the serpent is, but as being serpents, pride themselves upon being called Ophites from the serpent, which is an animal most hostile to and greatly dreaded by man, and boast of one Euphrates as the introducer of these unhallowed opinions.

Origen, catena fragment 47 on 1 Corinthians (my own quick translation):

Ἔστι τις αἵρεσις ἥτις οὐ προσίεται τὸν προσιόντα εἰ μὴ ἀναθεματίσῃ τὸν Ἰησοῦν. καὶ ἡ αἵρεσις ἐκείνη ἀξία ἐστὶ τοῦ ὀνόματος οὗ ἠγάπησεν· ἔστι γὰρ ἡ αἵρεσις τῶν καλουμένων Ὀφιανῶν, οἵτινες οὐ θεμιτὰ λέγουσιν εἰς ἐγκώμιον τοῦ ὄφεως, ὃς ἐπικατάρατός ἐστιν ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ. / There is a certain heresy which does not welcome one coming in unless he should pronounce anathema upon Jesus. And that heresy is worthy of the name which it loved; for it is the heresy of those called Ophites, who say things which are not permitted as an encomium for the serpent, who was cursed by God.

ETA: And Against Heresies 1.30 appears to be about the Ophites. Sections 12-13 describe a separationist Christology whereby Christ descended into Jesus at his baptism and left him right before his death. This seems at least compatible with the idea of cursing Jesus in order to glorify Christ, who is now free of him.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Are these the same people?

Post by Giuseppe »

The Ophites are evidence of a (pre-?)christianity without Jesus:

Origen says that the Ophites "would not even hear the name of Jesus." (Contra Celsus, VI, 30).

Epiphanius (Haer. xix, 6) says that "the Ossaeans and Nasaraeans persisted until the coming of Christ" (therefore being pre-Christians, in his view).

About Epiphanius 's claim about the antiquity of the some heretical sects, Rylands observes:
Since, by the time of Epiphanius, Gnosticism had ceased to be a serious danger to Catholic Christianity, he could venture to be less guarded than his predecessors and allow some facts previously concealed to appear.
(Beginning of Gnostic Christianity, p. 143, n. 1)

This would make Epiphanius less apologist and more historical writer.

Even the ebionites had a Christ not still named Jesus:
Epiphanius says of the Ebionites who believed that
the Christ had appeared in the body of Adam that at other
times "when they wished" they said : "No; but the Spirit
which is the Christ came and clothed himself in the body of
Jesus." We may safely infer that these contrary opinions
were not held by anyone simultaneously, but that among
the Ebionites the belief that the Christ had been incarnate in
Adam was gradually replaced by the belief either that he
had been incarnate in Jesus or that the incarnation in Jesus
was a subsequent and recent one ; just as the Peratai believed
that in the days of Herod the Logos had descended in the
form of the Patriarch Joseph, whose visible body may not
have been supposed to be a material one.
(ibid. p. 144)

Epiphanius says that he had not been able to make out
whether the Christ of the book of the Ossaeans was our Lord
Jesus Christ. Evidently therefore the name Jesus did not
occur in that book. The sect of the Sampsaeans is said to
have remained in existence to a later date than that of the
Ossaeans, but there was evidently no Jesus in their doctrine.
Epiphanius says they were neither Christians nor Jews.
They were, in fact, a Jewish sect, and they were Christians
in the sense that they revered a divine Christ. Certainly,
however, their Christ had no connection with Jesus.
(ibid. p. 146)

We are not definitely told that the Gnostic Ebionites were
Docetists, but Epiphanius says that "some of them denied that Jesus was a man."
(ibid. p. 159)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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arnoldo
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Re: Are these the same people?

Post by arnoldo »

Ben C. Smith wrote:1.

1 Corinthians 1.12: 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I [am] of Apollos,” and “I [am] of Cephas,” and “I [am] of Christ.”

Notice: not, "I am of Jesus Christ," but "I am of Christ."
2.

1 Corinthians 12.3: Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Are there some Christ devotees here who reject any connection to a personage named Jesus?

Ben.
Yes.
1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

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