Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Re: Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Post by outhouse »

But if the events took place in faraway Palestine
several decades ago, there was no way of verifying
them.
False. These proto Christians were going to Passover before the temple fell, this was the main way the new Judaism spread so fast and far far all over the Empire.

What you have always failed to grasp was the impact the temple had on Hellenistic Diaspora proselytes, for decades this temple was one of the most beautiful buildings in the whole world. This temple drew in half a million people yearly at Passover, many were gentiles who were amazed at the splendor and grandeur.

Factually a Galilean was martyred, historical or mythical, that took place, and you have not ever shown this to be mythical or any good reasons for such.

Now we have a martyred Galilean, and he was only martyred in the Diaspora by Hellenist who wanted to divorce cultural Judaism, but wanted the one god concept of judaism
outhouse
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Re: Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote: no people of Diaspora could verify the events happened recently in Israel.
Ignorantly false

The martyrdom starts in the temple where the Galilean is said to be crucified with half a million people in attendance, many of whom were from the Diaspora.

The biblical text places Jesus on stage at what amounted to a rock concert, in front of hundreds of thousands of people, and not one person, not even the enemies of the movement EVER claimed it did not happen.
outhouse
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Re: Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote:
Therefore there is really very little difference between the Jesus of Paul and the Gospel Jesus .

Only if you have actually not read the text.

Paul sold the theology

And the gospels give a back drop as to why.

So do you think John the Baptist was a myth to ? :confusedsmiley:

John is a historical character, and there is no reason a Galilean teacher did not take his place after his murder to keep Johns movement alive.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Post by Giuseppe »

Kyrelev seems to assume that Paul believed in an earthly crucifixion of the Messiah:
In the light of the present stage of historiography,
the problem of the origins of Christianity should be approached
without reference to the personality of Christ
and his activity, which, from the traditional theological
viewpoint, is the starting point of the history of Christianity.
What is of interest here is only how the image
of Christ gradually took shape, how it became historicised
and transformed from the mystical lamb and the Word
into a real human being with a concrete biography.
In the evolution of the image of Jesus one can see
two component parts of the Christian dogma. First, the
Messiah has already been on earth and will come again
some time in the future. And second, with all his holiness
and divinity the Messiah was a human being with a
real earthly biography, one who was born in this world
and died (or at any rate whose existence came to an end).
Both aspects of this process of historicising found expression
in the New Testament documents of the second
century, namely, St. Paul's Epistles and the Gospels.

And if we assume that this process began with the Epistles,
it seems to be completed in the Gospels.

In order to understand the process whereby Christ was
transformed into a historical personality, it is necessary
to establish the ideological reasons (which are socially
conditioned) for the need of such a transformation.
Why could not Jesus remain in the imagination of his
followers a mystical lamb or God who only had to come down
to earth some time in the future and appear not as a man
but as a divine being?'
Owing to historical circumstances such a variant of
the new religion would be inadequate. The new religion
was in constant struggle against Judaism. The Christian
dogma must be seen to contain new elements, and they had
to go further than the orthodox Judaic expectation of the
coming of the Messiah. The doctrine that the Messiah had
already come and had essentially fulfilled his mission
was a new element that attracted the early Christians.
It became especially significant at a time when the liberation
movements were suppressed by Rome, when hopes for
the coming of a militant and victorious Messiah were frustrated
by the most convincing argument, that is, life
itself. But if the Messiah had already come, then one
only had to know how it happened, in what way his deeds
were carried out, what kind of a personality he was, where
he was born and how he died, and so on.

The enemies of Christianity demanded more and more
new arguments that would confirm its truthfulness. If
the Messiah had come, they said, what did he do, where
did he live, what did he teach, how and in what circumstances
did he find himself in the supernatural world?
The early Christians could ward off these blows only by
working out a biography of Christ with the help of imagination.
(p. 173-174, my bold)

I see a contradiction here. If Kyrelev thinks that Paul had in mind an earthly Christ, then how could Paul prevent other Jews from esposing his Christ as not-existed? This is the same question raised before by Kyrelev himself (even if not mentioning Paul).

I suspect that Paul didn't need an apology against Mythicists of the his day because there was not a so explicit and especially PUBLIC claim by his part of the 'historicity' of Jesus. He preached ''a crucified Christ'' but he never said by who this Messiah was crucified (only in a highly-top-secret epistle reserved for the ''perfects'' he cares only one time to say that Christ was crucified by the ''archons of this aeon'' and even then the doubt is raised about the identity of the archons: were they Romans or demons?).

All the necessary for the new ''brothers of the Lord'' was to know that the Messiah was arrived and was crucified. Period.

But the Parusia didn't arrive insofar the cult propagated more and more. The secrecy (for the only 'perfects') about the identity of the Christ had to be abandoned, sooner or later.

And being sufficiently propagated, the cult had need of a propaganda against the interest (that is the same our interest) about the identity of the Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
outhouse
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Re: Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Post by outhouse »

Giuseppe wrote: I suspect that Paul didn't need an apology against Mythicists of the his day because there was not a so explicit
.
They did not exist, no one ever questioned his existence. They only questioned the actual Christology.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Christ: Myth or Reality? by I. Kryvelev

Post by Giuseppe »

outhouse wrote:
Giuseppe wrote: I suspect that Paul didn't need an apology against Mythicists of the his day because there was not a so explicit
.
They did not exist, no one ever questioned his existence. They only questioned the actual Christology.
They did.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3119#p69390

And read Justin's Tripho, please.

And read Ignatius, please.

Now you know why the crucified Christ was a folly for Pagans and a scandal for Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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