Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

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Stefan Kristensen
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Stefan Kristensen » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm

iskander wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:13 pm
Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm
iskander wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:00 pm
It is an excommunication. The individual is cut-off from the community; In the Hebrew Bible, to "cut off" (Hebrew: כרת‎ karath), is a form of punishment which may mean killing or excluding from the people.[2][3] The Book of Numbers states that anyone who sins deliberately or high-handedly is to be cut-off from the community:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareth

It became weapon of the punitive arsenal of the RCC in medieval times.
Paul is , perhaps, the first documented case of excommunication latae sententiae ,( 1 Cor 5: 1-8) Et dicuntur homines tradi Satanae, cum a tota ecclesia separantur.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4636&hilit=excommunication&start=10
I think it also most likely means excommunication, but there seems to be more to it. A curse being involved seems plausible as far as I can see from this thread. But I still think the phrase "destruction of the flesh" is strange. Many commentators simply believe that Paul is saying that he must be excommunicated and this automatically means that he is going to be executed by the authorities. But that really doesn't make sense to me.
Who can tell what " destruction of the flesh" may have meant for Paul?, but it is likely that Paul may have meant that the 'sinner' will not be resuscitated, his death will be eternal.
Maybe. And the syntax is also difficult, so that really doesn't help. And Paul says that as this one is handed over to Satan it is "for the destruction of the flesh in order that the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord". Whose spirit will be saved? The one whose flesh is destroyed? Or the collective spirit of the Corinthian community perhaps?

iskander
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by iskander » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:35 pm

Maybe. And the syntax is also difficult, so that really doesn't help. And Paul says that as this one is handed over to Satan it ishttp://earlywritings.com/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=3253 "for the destruction of the flesh in order that the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord". Whose spirit will be saved? The one whose flesh is destroyed? Or the collective spirit of the Corinthian community perhaps?
It may mean that excommunication will preserve the spirit of holiness among the community and the benefits associated with it. The sinner is treated as a person infected by the bubonic plague and sent away to protect the health of the community

Ulan
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Ulan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:50 pm

Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm
I think it also most likely means excommunication, but there seems to be more to it. A curse being involved seems plausible as far as I can see from this thread. But I still think the phrase "destruction of the flesh" is strange. Many commentators simply believe that Paul is saying that he must be excommunicated and this automatically means that he is going to be executed by the authorities. But that really doesn't make sense to me.
One of my "introductions" to the NT (by P. Pilhofer) claims that Paul is here clearly wishing the death penalty on this fellow. He has to resort to the curse because Paul's movement lacks the influence on the civil authorities yet to make this happen.

Stefan Kristensen
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Stefan Kristensen » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:39 am

Ulan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:50 pm
Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm
I think it also most likely means excommunication, but there seems to be more to it. A curse being involved seems plausible as far as I can see from this thread. But I still think the phrase "destruction of the flesh" is strange. Many commentators simply believe that Paul is saying that he must be excommunicated and this automatically means that he is going to be executed by the authorities. But that really doesn't make sense to me.
One of my "introductions" to the NT (by P. Pilhofer) claims that Paul is here clearly wishing the death penalty on this fellow. He has to resort to the curse because Paul's movement lacks the influence on the civil authorities yet to make this happen.
What does Pilhofer say about "the spirit being saved in the day of the Lord" as the result of "the destruction of the flesh" of this man? Is it the spirit of the man who is killed which will be saved at the judgement or is it the spirit of the Corinthian community?

Ulan
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Ulan » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:29 am

Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:39 am
Ulan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:50 pm
Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm
I think it also most likely means excommunication, but there seems to be more to it. A curse being involved seems plausible as far as I can see from this thread. But I still think the phrase "destruction of the flesh" is strange. Many commentators simply believe that Paul is saying that he must be excommunicated and this automatically means that he is going to be executed by the authorities. But that really doesn't make sense to me.
One of my "introductions" to the NT (by P. Pilhofer) claims that Paul is here clearly wishing the death penalty on this fellow. He has to resort to the curse because Paul's movement lacks the influence on the civil authorities yet to make this happen.
What does Pilhofer say about "the spirit being saved in the day of the Lord" as the result of "the destruction of the flesh" of this man? Is it the spirit of the man who is killed which will be saved at the judgement or is it the spirit of the Corinthian community?
It's an "introduction" (the genre) to the NT, which means it necessarily just picks out specific points of interest from any book of the NT, and here it's only the harshness of the sentence that he is interested in. He mostly quotes from a commentary by Hans Conzelmann and a text by Ethelbert Stauffer. An excerpt (my own translation, so expect some errors):

As far as the case dealt with in chapter 5 is concerned, much is unclear: the prior situation (what exactly makes this "porneia" in the first place?), the development of the "proceedings" up to that point, the role of Paul in this, etc. Clear is only the judgment by Paul in v. 5: "The 'destruction of the flesh' can hardly mean anything else but death", Conzelmann dryly states.
Ethelbert Stauffer expresses this more sharply: "In 1Cor 5,3ff., we are dealing with a Christian liquidation curse in the Old Testament sense and that of the late Jewish eradication action*. Goal of the liquidation curse is the eradication of the cursed by the hand of God. [...] You can imagine what Paul would have done with the Corinthian, if the Imperial government had granted the ius gladii to the presbyters of Christian communities. But the Imperium Romanum was at least somewhat governed by the rule of law. Therefore, Paul had to content himself with the liquidation curse, which the apostle decrees here without information, indictment, gathering of evidence, interrogation of the defendant, and without taking counsel with the community, in absentia." In any case, we are dealing here with a rather unsavory affair, which in the New Testament is only paralleled in Acts 5.

That'a all Pilhofer has to say here.

*the original reads "Ausrottungsverfahren" here, which must be some term from Jewish Law which I probably didn't translate correctly.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:46 am

Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm
Whose spirit will be saved? The one whose flesh is destroyed? Or the collective spirit of the Corinthian community perhaps?
For whatever it may be worth, Fitzmyer seems to agree with your suggestion that the spirit is not the man's own:

Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Commentary on 1 Corinthians, pages 239-240: so that the Spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord. I.e., “God’s Spirit present in the Corinthian congregation” (Donfried, “Justification,” 150). Such an interpretation of pneuma runs counter to the common mode of understanding pneuma in this verse, which reads it as if Paul had written autou pneuma, “his spirit,” i.e., the wrongdoer’s spirit (so interpreted in the RSV, NRSV, NAB, NIV, ESV, REB, and by Merklein, Kremer, Robertson-Plummer [1 Cor, 100], Fee [1 Cor, 198, 211]; Schweizer [TDNT, 6:435]). However, Paul did not write autou pneuma; but just as tēs sarkos lacks a poss. pron., so too pneuma. It seems rather to mean “Spirit,” i.e., God’s Spirit, either as the Spirit given to the man, when he became a Christian (so Senft, 1 Cor, 74); or as in 6:19, where Paul tells individual Christians that their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, so that the man may still have it until judgment day; or as the Spirit present to the community, as in 3:16–17, where Paul tells Corinthian Christians that they are God’s temple and that the Spirit of God dwells in them, so that it may not be lost to the community, but may continue to preserve the congregation for the day of judgment. The last alternative is the more likely, as it has been understood by Tertullian, De Pudicitia 13.24–25 (CCLat 2.1306), Ambrosiaster, Ad I Cor. 5.3.3 (CSEL 81.54), Donfried, Lindemann. In any case, this is the more remote goal of the handing over of the wrongdoer to Satan. Whatever is to happen to the wrongdoer, Paul is desirous that the community itself does not suffer; its Spirit is to be saved for the life of the community (Campbell, “Flesh and Spirit”).

ETA: Here is that passage from Tertullian which he adduces:

Tertullian, On Modesty 13: .... And now we may ask concerning these words, if the spirit of that man himself was saved. Then a soul, contaminated with so terrible a crime, would be saved, but the flesh had to perish for this very crime. Can he be saved though punished? Then the opposite interpretation would lead to a punishment without the flesh. In this way we lose the resurrection of the flesh. The only thing left is - as I can see - that he has meant, that the spirit of the church was to be preserved saved i.e. pure to the day of Our Lord from the contamination of such impurity, this incestuous fornicator ejected. For he has continued, "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" And an incestuous fornication however was not a little, but a large leaven.

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Ulan
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Ulan » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:13 am

Just to be clear, I don't think Pilhofer or Stauffer see that differently. A liquidation curse means just that, total eradication. There is no concern for the soul of the judged one.

iskander
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by iskander » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:46 am

The Jewish origin of Christianity is what 1 Cor. 5 is clearly showing.Paul was acting as an observant believer who wanted to introduce some innovations into the old religion while keeping some 'eternal' laws in the new religion.


The Torah describes a practice of declaring people cherem, which means that the person, and—in some cases—his family, would be annihilated, and his possessions donated to the Temple.
Image
Joshua passing the River Jordan with the Ark of the Covenant. Benjamin West (1738–1820)
https://thetorah.com/obliterating-cherem/

EXCOMMUNICATION (Hebrew, "niddui," "ḥerem"):
By: Solomon Schechter, Julius H. Greenstone

The highest ecclesiastical censure, the exclusion of a person from the religious community, which among the Jews meant a practical prohibition of all intercourse with society.



Offenses punishable by karet

According to the Mishnah in Kerithoth there are a total of 36 offenses punishable by kareth. These are the 36 offenses as enumerated in that Mishnah. Where the offense is sexual intercourse karet applies to both parties:


1. Sexual intercourse with one’s mother
2. Sexual intercourse with one’s father’s wife
...

Stefan Kristensen
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Stefan Kristensen » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:41 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:46 am
Stefan Kristensen wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:21 pm
Whose spirit will be saved? The one whose flesh is destroyed? Or the collective spirit of the Corinthian community perhaps?
For whatever it may be worth, Fitzmyer seems to agree with your suggestion that the spirit is not the man's own:

Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Commentary on 1 Corinthians, pages 239-240: so that the Spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord. I.e., “God’s Spirit present in the Corinthian congregation” (Donfried, “Justification,” 150). Such an interpretation of pneuma runs counter to the common mode of understanding pneuma in this verse, which reads it as if Paul had written autou pneuma, “his spirit,” i.e., the wrongdoer’s spirit (so interpreted in the RSV, NRSV, NAB, NIV, ESV, REB, and by Merklein, Kremer, Robertson-Plummer [1 Cor, 100], Fee [1 Cor, 198, 211]; Schweizer [TDNT, 6:435]). However, Paul did not write autou pneuma; but just as tēs sarkos lacks a poss. pron., so too pneuma. It seems rather to mean “Spirit,” i.e., God’s Spirit, either as the Spirit given to the man, when he became a Christian (so Senft, 1 Cor, 74); or as in 6:19, where Paul tells individual Christians that their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, so that the man may still have it until judgment day; or as the Spirit present to the community, as in 3:16–17, where Paul tells Corinthian Christians that they are God’s temple and that the Spirit of God dwells in them, so that it may not be lost to the community, but may continue to preserve the congregation for the day of judgment. The last alternative is the more likely, as it has been understood by Tertullian, De Pudicitia 13.24–25 (CCLat 2.1306), Ambrosiaster, Ad I Cor. 5.3.3 (CSEL 81.54), Donfried, Lindemann. In any case, this is the more remote goal of the handing over of the wrongdoer to Satan. Whatever is to happen to the wrongdoer, Paul is desirous that the community itself does not suffer; its Spirit is to be saved for the life of the community (Campbell, “Flesh and Spirit”).

ETA: Here is that passage from Tertullian which he adduces:

Tertullian, On Modesty 13: .... And now we may ask concerning these words, if the spirit of that man himself was saved. Then a soul, contaminated with so terrible a crime, would be saved, but the flesh had to perish for this very crime. Can he be saved though punished? Then the opposite interpretation would lead to a punishment without the flesh. In this way we lose the resurrection of the flesh. The only thing left is - as I can see - that he has meant, that the spirit of the church was to be preserved saved i.e. pure to the day of Our Lord from the contamination of such impurity, this incestuous fornicator ejected. For he has continued, "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?" And an incestuous fornication however was not a little, but a large leaven.

Ulan wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:13 am
Just to be clear, I don't think Pilhofer or Stauffer see that differently. A liquidation curse means just that, total eradication. There is no concern for the soul of the judged one.
I also think that makes more sense than the spirit of the excommunicated fellow being saved. The notion of salvation through excommunication would just be very strange.

Stefan Kristensen
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Re: Boink the Step-Mother? – Look Out Below (1 Cor 5:5)

Post by Stefan Kristensen » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:43 pm

Ulan wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:29 am
He mostly quotes from a commentary by Hans Conzelmann and a text by Ethelbert Stauffer. An excerpt (my own translation, so expect some errors):

As far as the case dealt with in chapter 5 is concerned, much is unclear: the prior situation (what exactly makes this "porneia" in the first place?), the development of the "proceedings" up to that point, the role of Paul in this, etc. Clear is only the judgment by Paul in v. 5: "The 'destruction of the flesh' can hardly mean anything else but death", Conzelmann dryly states.
Ethelbert Stauffer expresses this more sharply: "In 1Cor 5,3ff., we are dealing with a Christian liquidation curse in the Old Testament sense and that of the late Jewish eradication action*. Goal of the liquidation curse is the eradication of the cursed by the hand of God. [...] You can imagine what Paul would have done with the Corinthian, if the Imperial government had granted the ius gladii to the presbyters of Christian communities. But the Imperium Romanum was at least somewhat governed by the rule of law. Therefore, Paul had to content himself with the liquidation curse, which the apostle decrees here without information, indictment, gathering of evidence, interrogation of the defendant, and without taking counsel with the community, in absentia." In any case, we are dealing here with a rather unsavory affair, which in the New Testament is only paralleled in Acts 5.

That'a all Pilhofer has to say here.

*the original reads "Ausrottungsverfahren" here, which must be some term from Jewish Law which I probably didn't translate correctly.
Thanks alot.

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