Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

It is interesting that Irenaeus directs two of his letters to individuals with these sorts of names. First of all in the surviving Proof of the Apostolic Teaching is addressed to a certain 'Marcianus' (= 'of Marcus'). Eusebius, Hist. eccles. 5. 20. 6-8 mentions a 'letter to Florinus' (= 'of Flora). What are the odds that both 'Marcus' and 'Flora' are known to be gnostics, Marcus from Irenaeus but Flora is the addressee of Ptolemy's Letter to Flora.

Interestingly at the beginning of Adversus Haereses Irenaeus makes clear he is writing "to the disciples of Ptolemaeus, whose school may be described as a bud from that of Valentinus." But is 'Valentinus' even the name of the heretic or is this name too an addressee of a previous letter - perhaps the Valens of Polycarp's letter to the Philippians?

Ptolemy has to be mid-second century if Irenaeus wrote Adv Haer c. 177 CE. The work is not directed against Ptolemy but his followers. How exactly 'Florinus' would be a follower of Flora, Ptolemy's addressee is an open question. Perhaps the Church Fathers were attempting to make it seem as if there were more heretics than there really were.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by spin »

Secret Alias wrote:'Marcianus' (= 'of Marcus')...
Actually, no. You don't form an adoptive name from a praenomen. "Marcianus" is derived from the Roman gens Marcius, not the praenomen Marcus. The "i" is part of the root. It seems if there is an "i" at the end of the root you add "-an"; if not, "-in", as in Florus -> Florinus; Valens -> Valentinus (-s -> -t root, eg Clemens, Florens, Constans).
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Charles Wilson »

See for example, Mucianus Licinius:

https://books.google.com/books?id=VzMGA ... us&f=false
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

Actually, no.
Is it really that cut and dry? cf 'Ciceronianus' https://books.google.com/books?id=po8CA ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

How could all the 'Marciani' be related to the rarest of praenomina i.e. Marcius? Can't be that we have thousands of Marcians but no Marciuses. Something not right. And these:
Titus Flavius Marcianus, son of Marcus, of the tribe Collina, native of Philadelphia, optio hastati (aide-de camp of the centurion of a first line unit armed with spears) of the Sixth Legion Ferrata.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... dnA2qYiDsA
He is of barbarous origin. His father seems to have adopted the Roman name 'Marcus' making him Marcianus no? Or this:
Marcus Badusius Marcianus, son of Marcus, of the Palatina tribe, from Sarsina. Iscrizione - Inscription (CIL XI, 414).
Or this:
Marcianus son of Marcus from Prusias ad Hypium (IK 27.1).
And this Syrian too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Ju ... _Marcianus
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

And leaving that aside for the moment. I think we would all agree that the heresiologists tended to 'pile on' the number of heretics in the world because it played into the hysteria that Christians were straying from a uniform message on doctrine (and this opened the door to fascist logic that 'one rule' had to be maintained).

Given that, we have a consistent emphasis in Irenaeus's treatises of a great number of 'sects' (heresies) centered around individual teachers. From the beginning of Adv Haer:
Lest, therefore, through my neglect, some should be carried off, even as sheep are by wolves, while they perceive not the true character of these men,-because they outwardly are covered with sheep's clothing (against whom the Lord has enjoined(5) us to be on our guard), and because their language resembles ours, while their sentiments are very different,--I have deemed it my duty (after reading some of the Commentaries, as they call them, of the disciples of Valentinus, and after making myself acquainted with their tenets through personal intercourse with some of them) to unfold to thee, my friend, these portentous and profound mysteries, which do not fall within the range of every intellect, because all have not sufficiently purged(6) their brains. I do this, in order that thou, obtaining an acquaintance with these things, mayest in turn explain them to all those with whom thou art connected, and exhort them to avoid such an abyss of madness and of blasphemy against Christ. I intend, then, to the best of my ability, with brevity and clearness to set forth the opinions of those who are now promulgating heresy. I refer especially to the disciples of Ptolemaeus, whose school may be described as a bud from that of Valentinus. I shall also endeavour, according to my moderate ability, to furnish the means of overthrowing them, by showing how absurd and inconsistent with the truth are their statements.
In the case of 'Valentinus' for instance, if there is a relationship between the 'Valens' of Polycarp's address and 'Valentinus' (i.e. an individual perhaps an anonymous or generic or 'idealized' individual who was the subject of a treatise by a Church Father which appealed itself to members of the sect of Valens) 'the Valentinians' might in fact be little more than 'grandchildren' of the original heresy of Valens.

Yes Irenaeus says that the sect of Ptolemy 'may be described as a bud from that of Valentinus' but that doesn't mean that he has any real information about who the 'Valentinus' was. Even Epiphanius admits when he writes his Panarion that Irenaeus (and Epiphanius had much better information than we on volumes of things written by Irenaeus) that no real biographical information exists about Valentinus:
Most people do not know Valentinus' homeland or birthplace; to give his birthplace has not been an easy business for any writer. But I have heard a report as though by word of mouth; therefore I shall not overlook it, and though I cannot give his birthplace—to be honest, it is a disputed point—I shall not be be silent about the rumour that has reached me.
In Tertullian's reworking of Irenaeus's original treatise Against the Valentinians we should be more pessimistic about the information still:
novimus inquam optime originem quoque ipsorum et scimus cur Valentinianos appellemus, licet non esse videantur, abscesseruat enim a conditore sed minime origo deletur et si forte mutetur: testatio est ipsa mutatio. speraverat episcopatum Valentinus quia et ingenio poterat et eloquio, sed alium ex martyrii praerogativa loca potitum indignatus, de ecclesia authenticae regulae abrupit. ut solent animi pro prioratu exciti praesumptione ultionis accendi, [2] ad expugnandum conversus veritatem et cuiusdam veteris opinionis semitam nactus Colorbaso viam delineavit. eam postmodum Ptolomaeus intravit, nominibus et numeris Aeonum distinctis in personales substantias, sed extra deum determinatas, quas Valentinus in ipsa summa divinitatis (ut sensus et affectus, motus) incluserat. deduxit et Heracleon inde tramites quosdam et Secundus et magus Marcus. [3] multum circa imagines legis Theotimus operatus est. ita nusquam iam Valentinus et tamen Valentiniani qui per Valentinum. soius ad hodiernum Antiochiae Axionicus memoriam Valentini integra custodia regularum eius consolatur. alioquin tantum sehuic haeresi suadere permissum est quantum lupae feminae formam cotidie supparare solemne est. [4] quidni, cum spiritale illud semen suum sic in unoquoque recenseant? si aliquid novi adstruxerint revelationem statim appellant praesumptionem et charisma ingenium, nec unitatem sed diversitatem. ideoque prospicimus, seposita alla solemni dissi- mulatione sua, plerosque dividi quibusdam articulis. etiam bona fide dicturos "hoc ita non est" et "hoc aliter accipio" et "hoc non agnosco." varietate enim innovatur regularum facies; habet etiam colores ignorantiarum.
Translation:
I affirm that we know quite well their origins and we also know why we call them Valentinians even though they seem not to be; for they have left their founder's path. Still their original teachings have not been at all forgotten, even if they have been changed somewhat: this very change bears witness to their former teachings. Valentinus expected to become bishop because he had great abilities of mind and tongue, but another was preferred for the position because he suffered as a martyr. Angry at this, Valentinus broke with the legitimate church. Just as minds who have been excited with the hope of advancement usually burn anticipating revenge, he turned to overthrowing truth. Having discovered the trail of some old teaching, he paved the way for Colorbasus. Afterwards Ptolomaeus travelled the same path; he segregated those attributes--such as feeling, influence, and motion--which Valentinus had included in the totality of the godhead into names and positions, i.e., Aeons considered as animate individuals having their existence apart from God. Heracleon cut a few footpaths from there, as did Secundus and Marcus the seer. Theotimus evolved many things about the "forms" of the law. As you see, Valentinus has disappeared, yet these are Valentinians who derive from Valentinus. At Antioch alone to this day Axionicus consoles the memory of Valentinus by a full obedience of his rules. The other heretics allow themselves to change their teachings with the same frequency a prostitute changes her makeup--and why not?--since each of them discovers that well known spiritual seed in himself: if they invent anything new, they immediately call it a revelation; they call their audacity a spiritual gift. They do not claim their sect is united, but admit it is diverse; consequently whenever they abandon their usual equivocation, we see that most of them are at odds about the meaning of certain dogmas, some saying in good faith, "this is not so"; others, "I take this in a different sense"; others, "I don't admit that." As we see their list of rules has been painted over by their innovations and looks as if it
had been scribbled on by an ignoramus.
Holmes translation:
We know, I say, most fully their actual origin, and we are quite aware why we call them Valentinians, although they affect to disavow their name. They have departed, it is true,47 from their founder, yet is their origin by no means destroyed; and even if it chance to be changed, the very change bears testimony to the fact. Valentinus had expected to become a bishop, because he was an able man both in genius and eloquence. Being indignant, however, that another obtained the dignity by reason of a claim which confessorship48 had given him, he broke with the church of the true faith. Just like those (restless) spirits which, when roused by ambition, are usually inflamed with the desire of revenge, he applied himself with all his might49 to exterminate the truth; and finding the clue50 of a certain old opinion, he marked out a path for himself with the subtlety of a serpent. Ptolemaeus afterwards entered on the same path, by distinguishing the names and the numbers of the Aenons into personal substances, which, however, he kept apart from God. Valentinus had included these in the very essence of the Deity, as senses and affections of motion. Sundry bypaths were then struck off therefrom, by Heraclean and Secundus and the magician Marcus. Theotimus worked hard about "the images of the law." Valentinus, however, was as yet nowhere, and still the Valentinians derive their name from Valentinus. Axionicus at Antioch is the only man who at the present time does honour51 to the memory of Valentinus, by keeping his rules52 to the full. But this heresy is permitted to fashion itself into as many various shapes as a courtezan, who usually changes and adjusts her dress every day. And why not? When they review that spiritual seed of theirs in every man after this fashion, whenever they have hit upon any novelty, they forthwith call their presumption a revelation, their own perverse ingenuity a spiritual gift; but (they deny all) unity, admitting only diversity.53 And thus we clearly see that, setting aside their customary dissimulation, most of them are in a divided state, being ready to say (and that sincerely) of certain points of their belief, "This is not so; "and, "I take this in a different sense; "and, "I do not admit that." By this variety, indeed, innovation is stamped on the very face of their rules; besides which, it wears all the colourable features of ignorant conceits
It would seem to me at least that there was a conscious effort on Irenaeus's part to explain the similarities in 'secret teachings' in Italy with the model that there was an original 'Valentinus' who spawned a number of sects but the evidence must have been meager outside the pages of Irenaeus for any proof for this assertion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by spin »

Secret Alias wrote:
Actually, no.
Is it really that cut and dry? cf 'Ciceronianus' https://books.google.com/books?id=po8CA ... 22&f=false
Cicero would seem to be a third declension with a weak "n" at the end of the stem. The genitive shows the situation: Ciceronis. The "i" is not well represented in the example you found. It should be Ciceroni-anus.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

Ok but let's try to figure this out. The origin of the gens Marcius. There was some guy who had the praenomen Marcus and his descendants developed the nomen Marcius. Right so far? Marcus + ius = Marcius.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by Secret Alias »

I suspect that some people may have been confused by Marcus owing to its relationship with Mars which takes -ius and -ian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Martius#Latin
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Martian
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Valens/Valentinus, Flora/Florinus and Marcus/Marcianus

Post by spin »

Secret Alias wrote:How could all the 'Marciani' be related to the rarest of praenomina i.e. Marcius? Can't be that we have thousands of Marcians but no Marciuses. Something not right. And these:
Titus Flavius Marcianus, son of Marcus, of the tribe Collina, native of Philadelphia, optio hastati (aide-de camp of the centurion of a first line unit armed with spears) of the Sixth Legion Ferrata.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... dnA2qYiDsA
He is of barbarous origin. His father seems to have adopted the Roman name 'Marcus' making him Marcianus no?
No. "Marcus" is a praenomen. I don't know why T. Flavius Marcianus (or the people below) has that cognomen, but folk-etymologizing won't give you the answer. Marcus is an extremely common praenomen. This is because there were such a small selection of them.
Secret Alias wrote:Or this:
Marcus Badusius Marcianus, son of Marcus, of the Palatina tribe, from Sarsina. Iscrizione - Inscription (CIL XI, 414).
This person was also a Marcus: Marcus Badusius Marcianus. It was the praenomen that came from the father (and perhaps all three names). We have no indication why the cognomen was "Marcianus".
Secret Alias wrote:Or this:
Marcianus son of Marcus from Prusias ad Hypium (IK 27.1).
And this Syrian too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Ju ... _Marcianus
There is no sign of the father of this last person.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Post Reply