Who touches Jesus is a true apostle and a touched Jesus is..

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Who touches Jesus is a true apostle and a touched Jesus is..

Post by Giuseppe »

Abstract:

New reconstructions of Marcion’s Gospel, which are considerably more sophisticated than past attempts, allow more certainty when comparing Marcion’s text with canonical Luke. This essay examines the presentations of the resurrected Jesus in canonical Luke and Marcion’s Gospel, with a particular focus on the text-critical problems in Luke 24 (especially the shorter Western readings) and on the distinctive ways the two texts theorize Jesus’ risen bodily presence (especially the terms φάντασμα and πνεῦμα, and σάρξ and ὀστέα). Parallel evidence from the letters of Ignatius indicates that the emphasis on touching Jesus, who has risen in a flesh-and-bones body (as in Luke 24:36–43), does not reveal a specifically anti-docetic or anti-Marcionite agenda, but rather was an attempt to restrict apostolic authorization to the Twelve and their successors. These examinations provide suggestive, though admittedly not conclusive, evidence that Marcion’s Gospel is the earlier text and canonical Luke the later text, particularly given the problems identifying a coherent editorial agenda on Marcion’s part (assuming the priority of canonical Luke)

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/zac.20 ... 7-0003.xml


If I understand well from the abstract of the article,

1) Mcn = proto-Luke would have what served to Ignatius propaganda (who touches the Risen Jesus is true apostle)

2) When Mcn was used and interpreted by Marcion and marcionites, the apostles were false ones because they touched a phantasma.

3) Against Mcn, Luke introduced the anti-docetic interpretation: a touched Jesus is not docetic.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Who touches Jesus is a true apostle and a touched Jesus

Post by Bernard Muller »

1) Mcn = proto-Luke would have what served to Ignatius propaganda (who touches the Risen Jesus is true apostle)

2) When Mcn was used and interpreted by Marcion and marcionites, the apostles were false ones because they touched a phantasma.

3) Against Mcn, Luke introduced the anti-docetic interpretation: a touched Jesus is not docetic.
Docetic bodies are as physical than normal ones, and therefore could be touched (or Jesus could touch other humans).
In gMarcion, there are occurrences of Jesus' body (alive or dead) being in physical contact with humans (4:29,40,42; 5:13; 7:38; 8:45; 23:33,53, according to viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765).

BTW, in Lk 24:39-40, the disciples are not said to touch the resurrected Jesus even if they are invited to do so. That means to me "Luke" did not have an anti-Docetic agenda, contrary to an Ignatian letter which has the disciples touching Jesus then.
So I do not see why that fact can be used as a clue favoring gMarcion being written before gLuke: on the contrary!

Cordially, Bernard
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Giuseppe
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Re: Who touches Jesus is a true apostle and a touched Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

That means to me "Luke" did not have an anti-Docetic agenda, contrary to an Ignatian letter which has the disciples touching Jesus then.
The point of the article (I have read only the abstract of it) is that the Ignatian letter has not an anti-Docetic agenda:
Parallel evidence from the letters of Ignatius indicates that the emphasis on touching Jesus, who has risen in a flesh-and-bones body (as in Luke 24:36–43), does not reveal a specifically anti-docetic or anti-Marcionite agenda, but rather was an attempt to restrict apostolic authorization to the Twelve and their successors
Therefore, if it is true, then when Luke reads:
Luke 24:39-40

39 Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.
...Luke was responding to Marcion by denying that the giver of legitimacy to disciples was a mere ghost.

At any case, it would be useful to read the article.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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