Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

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John2
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by John2 »

Neil,

I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying or trying to contradict it and I'm taking it all into consideration. The "why" indeed is an interesting question and I appreciate your comments.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Apologies.
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John2
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by John2 »

No prob, Neil. I like you. You were "there" for me when I got back into ancient history stuff and found your blog, and you always give me a different way of looking at things.
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Nathan
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by Nathan »

Neil, I'm not sure I'd agree with everything you've said thus far.

To my knowledge, the ancients (Jewish and Christian) believed biblical prophecy was always predictive, while it was the language or mode of prediction that changed or varied.* Some prophecy was self-evidently predictive, such as the prophecy in the books of, say, Isaiah or Jeremiah, while other types were supposedly veiled and merely allusive, which, in this latter case, is why more complex or esoteric means of interpretation (such as midrash and/or allegory) were required. Either way, biblical prophecy was always prospective in the view of the ancients, and was therefore always in some way predictive as a result.

The author/compiler of the Midrash Psalms, for instance, found predictive prophecy in a number of the Psalms precisely because he believed David (the putative author) had, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, foreseen and then written about future events, albeit in veiled form: "by the help of the Holy Spirit David saw how the four kingdoms would oppress Israel" (17.9); "the Holy One … made known to David what would be done to Daniel" (64.1); "as soon as David foresaw by the help of the Holy Spirit that 'O my Strength' was the apostrophe by which [Esther] would call upon the Holy One … David, thinking upon Esther, arranged this Psalm [accordingly]" (22.8); "this Psalm proves that the Holy One … let David see the destruction of the First Temple, and also the destruction of the Second Temple" (137.1). The principles of midrashic interpretation then supposedly allowed the midrashist to explain the Psalms more recondite predictive prophecy.

With respect to the DSS you stated: "Psalm 1:1 was interpreted as a prophecy of the 'Qumran sect'. That's because they interpreted all scripture allegorically …" But you're putting the cart before the horse here. Rather, it was because the Qumran sect thought the Psalms were veiled predictive prophecy that they resorted to a kind of allegorical approach, and not the other way around—i.e., they did not arrive at the belief that the Psalms were prophetic because they had allegory in their hermeneutical toolbox; instead, allegory (if that's really an appropriate term for their exegesis) allowed them to uncover the book's putative layer of predictive prophecy, specifically its supposed references to their own times and their own community.

On the Christian side, adherents of the so-called Antiochene school of exegesis tended to reject allegorical interpretation, and yet still found instances of predictive prophecy within the Psalms. Diodore of Tarsus would claim that "what is [exegetically] arrived at in defiance of the content [of scripture] is not discernment but allegory … Self-opinionated innovators in commenting on the divine scripture … undermine and do violence to the historical sense, introduc[ing] allegory … for their own vainglory, making the readers substitute one thing for another." That being said, in his commentary on Psalm 2, Diodore begins by saying, "The second psalm is a prophecy to do with the Lord [meaning Jesus, of course]." In other words, Psalm 2 is manifestly predictive prophecy in Diodore's opinion and requires no sort of allegorical interpretation.

At any rate, to sum up I would say that, while I do appreciate your nuanced approach to the subject, Neil, I think it falls short at some points and inadvertently obscures some important issues.



*Rabbinic interpreters identified ten modes (or "languages") of prophecy (the precise meaning of each of which is not altogether clear to me): word, speech, story, riddle, parable, metaphor, prophecy, oracle, flow of words, and vision (Gen. Rab. 44.6//Agg. Ber. 14c).
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

The word "predictive" and its connotations for us might be the problem here. Greeks could read and quote Homer as a work of relevance to questions of how they lived day to day. Is not that also how the "Judeans" approached their scriptures? Perhaps "oracle" would be a better term than "prophecy" to convey the point. Some oracles were directed to events yet to come, but most were God speaking to readers about their current situation and obligations.

Romans 3:1-2 "What advantage then has the Jew...? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God."

Christians certainly very early turned this allegorical reading into explicit "predictions" about the future but this was at a time when they were in an ideological war against the Jews, dispossessing the Jews of their scriptures in order to take them as their own. I think off-hand that Justin Martyr may have been one of the first to interpret them this way.
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Nathan
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by Nathan »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:12 pmGreeks could read and quote Homer as a work of relevance to questions of how they lived day to day.
Could you elaborate on this point a bit? I'm not sure I follow. I'm aware of the use of Homeric lines for charms and amulets, particularly within the Greek Magical Papyri, but then I'm not sure that would even be what you have in mind.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Nathan wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:33 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:12 pmGreeks could read and quote Homer as a work of relevance to questions of how they lived day to day.
Could you elaborate on this point a bit? I'm not sure I follow. I'm aware of the use of Homeric lines for charms and amulets, particularly within the Greek Magical Papyri, but then I'm not sure that would even be what you have in mind.
I only meant that they would quote lines from Homer to explain or justify what they should do day to day, or how they should live, values they should live by. It was to that extent a "living text", relevant for each generation who read it. Not unlike the Qumran community who would read Psalm 1:1 and say that those words were written for them.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by Secret Alias »

So in other words the ancient were uncontrolled narcissists. They thought the world revolved around them and if something couldn't be adapted to their egocentric worldview it was ignored or put to the side.
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andrewcriddle
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Oracles of God by John Barton may be relevant to this whole debate. It explores how understanding of Scripture in late Hellenistic and Roman times could be very different both from the original meaning of the text and also from the way a modern reader would tend to understand it.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why Do Christians Think the Psalms Are Prophetic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:06 pm So in other words the ancient were uncontrolled narcissists. They thought the world revolved around them and if something couldn't be adapted to their egocentric worldview it was ignored or put to the side.
No, Mr (Invisible Secret) Huller. If you are seriously interpreting the above comments that way then before I can even begin to offer a clarification that is in fact consistent with normative human behaviour, standard religious sectarianism, universal processes for establishing communal identities, and the whole bloody history and contemporary real-life experiences of humanity, please explain exactly what in your view is the meaning of "uncontrolled narcissism".

Secondly, how many religious sectarian groups do you know of who don't think that they and their God are somehow at the centre of their world-view of the universe and history. Do you diagnose every such sectarian group as "uncontrolled narcissistic"?

Why do you think in such extreme either/or dichotomies. What experience have you had of the real world? (By "Real World" experience I mean something that stretches ones horizons beyond both immersion in a latter-day remnant of a Samaritan sect and intellectual analogies drawn from experiences with prostitutes.)
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