Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

Post by neilgodfrey »

DCHindley wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:17 pm When I evaluate a secondary source (as this has to consist of over 90% of what has survived), I mentally remove the author's "color commentary" on matters such as motives and ethics of the protagonists from the narrative and see what kind of straightforward account is left. These stripped-down narratives are what I prefer to compare and contrast to ferret out historical nuggets.
I'd like to comment on this paragraph (pending, hopefully, a response to my earlier comment on the second paragraph that appeared in this same comment).

I'd like to suggest that the method of reading history proposed here has got the cart before the horse. It is what some historians today would consider a naive approach to historical research.

Before we start sifting motives etc in the writing, we need to ask what the author is on about. Why is he writing at all? For whom? Why is he writing about the things in his narrative? Where does all of that stuff come from? This is especially so with ancient historians because their reasons for writing "history" were quite different from those of modern professional historians.

I mentioned Steve Mason's new work on the Jewish War before. Mason asks those sorts of questions of Josephus and the answers -- a study of the intellectual culture Josephus was immersed in -- leads him to realize he cannot accept much of J's narrative of the war at all as "historical". To oversimplify, Mason uncovers the evidence that Josephus is writing primarily for his peers to impress them with his "wisdom" and "goodness" as a community leader and intellectual.

Even the narratives themselves cannot always be assumed to be grounded in J's historical research or personal historical memory. That would be to assume a professional historical interest alien to his time. Ancient historians were very often moralizers, writing about moral lessons, impressing audiences with their sagacity. Truthiness, truth-likeness, verisimilitude could be as good as the real thing, or even better.

Historical narratives could sometimes be woven from an author's imagination as he drew upon strands of Homer, tragedians, poets or prophets. We have long believed Herodotus, 'father of history', to have travelled widely to gain first-hand information about the peoples and customs he writes about. Yet some historians think there are good reasons to think he never stepped foot outside of the Hellas at all.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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iskander wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:18 am From the book , In defence of History, by Richard John Evans :

" Few historians would now defend the hard -line concept of historical objectivity espoused by Elton. The prevalence of historical controversy, endemic in the profession for decades, has long since disabused historians of the idea that the truth lies buried in the documents, and once the historian has unearthed it, no one ever need perform the same operation again....

The notion of scientific history, based on the rigorous investigation of primary sources, has been vehemently attacked. Increasing numbers of writers on the subject deny that there is such a thing as historical truth or objectivity- both concepts defended, in different ways, by Carr as well as Elton. "


NB. History is an educated opinion about the past.*
This is a thread titled "Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul".

It seems to be getting off-topic. I made four posts about aspects of history pertaining to things that could well be related to the 'Martyrdom of Peter and Paul', starting here - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 675#p72675.

Would you like to engage with them, to reduce the chance of this aspect of history just being * "an educated opinion about the past"?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:11 pm Before we start sifting motives etc in the writing, we need to ask what the author is on about. Why is he writing at all? For whom? Why is he writing about the things in his narrative? Where does all of that stuff come from? This is especially so with ancient historians because their reasons for writing "history" were quite different from those of modern professional historians.
Yes. Would you like to apply that to the topic of this thread? Starting here http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 675#p72675
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:36 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:11 pm Before we start sifting motives etc in the writing, we need to ask what the author is on about. Why is he writing at all? For whom? Why is he writing about the things in his narrative? Where does all of that stuff come from? This is especially so with ancient historians because their reasons for writing "history" were quite different from those of modern professional historians.
Yes. Would you like to apply that to the topic of this thread? Starting here http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 675#p72675
I don't think there's anything more for me to add to that comment you link. That comment is a good illustration or application of the point I have tried to make here.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:29 pm I don't think there's anything more for me to add to that comment you link. That comment is a good illustration or application of the point I have tried to make here.
Do you (or anyone else) think it's plausible the legend of Peter and Paul being martyred in Rome under Nero developed in conjunction with legends of Nero (or in conjunction with the development of legends of Nero)?

Do you (or anyone else) think it's plausible the Tacitus' Annals 15.44 legend of Nero persecuting Christians developed in conjunction with the development of the Nero-the-AntiChrist legend?

Do you (or anyone else) think some of the writings of Tertullian show partial development of some of these legends?
andrewcriddle
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:24 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:29 pm I don't think there's anything more for me to add to that comment you link. That comment is a good illustration or application of the point I have tried to make here.
Do you (or anyone else) think it's plausible the legend of Peter and Paul being martyred in Rome under Nero developed in conjunction with legends of Nero (or in conjunction with the development of legends of Nero)?

Do you (or anyone else) think it's plausible the Tacitus' Annals 15.44 legend of Nero persecuting Christians developed in conjunction with the development of the Nero-the-AntiChrist legend?

Do you (or anyone else) think some of the writings of Tertullian show partial development of some of these legends?
I think it is plausible that the claim in Tacitus that Christians were persecuted by Nero as arsonists is dubious.
There seems to be enough apparently independent evidence to make it highly likely that Nero took anti-Christian measures resulting in a number of Christian deaths.

If Nero took these sort of anti-Christian measures then it is plausible (but far from certain) that Peter and Paul were among his victims. The detailed evidence suggesting that Peter was killed in Rome under Nero is rather different from the deatiled evidence suggesting that Paul was killed in Rome under Nero. It is quite possible that one of these claims is true but not the other.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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The mythicist Dujardin thinks that it is even probable (that Paul and the Christians were killed as arsonists in Rome under Nero). For him, Romans 13 about the submission to Roman archons is a late interpolation. To destroy Rome was considered by Christians (as Paul) a collateral effect of Jesus being identified as the Christ. The Great Fire of Rome was seen as an apocalyptic and messianic sign that prefigured the Parusia.

This may explain the absence of Pauline communities after the 66 CE.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:29 pm This is a thread titled "Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul".

It seems to be getting off-topic.
If it's off topic it got derailed with the third post that was the first to address the methodology behind the traditional understanding as set out in the article linked in the OP post: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3322#p72594
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andrewcriddle
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

Post by andrewcriddle »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:09 am
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:24 pm
Do you (or anyone else) think it's plausible the legend of Peter and Paul being martyred in Rome under Nero developed in conjunction with legends of Nero (or in conjunction with the development of legends of Nero)?

Do you (or anyone else) think it's plausible the Tacitus' Annals 15.44 legend of Nero persecuting Christians developed in conjunction with the development of the Nero-the-AntiChrist legend?

Do you (or anyone else) think some of the writings of Tertullian show partial development of some of these legends?
I think it is plausible that the claim in Tacitus that Christians were persecuted by Nero as arsonists is dubious.
There seems to be enough apparently independent evidence to make it highly likely that Nero took anti-Christian measures resulting in a number of Christian deaths.

If Nero took these sort of anti-Christian measures then it is plausible (but far from certain) that Peter and Paul were among his victims. The detailed evidence suggesting that Peter was killed in Rome under Nero is rather different from the deatiled evidence suggesting that Paul was killed in Rome under Nero. It is quite possible that one of these claims is true but not the other.

Andrew Criddle
Old discussion of Tacitus on Christians here

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MrMacSon
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Re: Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul

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andrewcriddle wrote: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:03 am
Old discussion of Tacitus on Christians here
There have been recent discussions here on BC&H discussing a number of concepts -

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 960#p60960


I think Annals 15.44 has been interpolated, possibly in conjunction with the passage in Sulpcius Severus's chronicle, and possibly as simply as Tiberius being an interpolation for Nero, and Pontius Pilate being an interpolation for Porcius Festus. The time period of the book, and the passage, and its flow from Nero to Tiberius Nero, to Nero again, fits the middle passage being about Nero better than it fits Tiberius.

I think the legends around Nero - the 'Nero redivivus' legend and the Nero-the-anti-Christ legend - were part of or involved in (i) the development of the legends of Paul and Peter being martyred in the time of Nero, and (ii) the development of the legend that Nero persecuted Christians -

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 943#p71943


I think the writings of Tertullian show aspects of the development of those legends -

http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 649#p71649
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