Fake News: Martyrdom of Peter and Paul
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:22 pm
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Moss sounds as if she thinks 50 years after the purported events robs the account of some degree of credibility!Most of the historical evidence for Nero persecuting Christians comes to us from the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote between 115-120 CE, at least fifty years after the events he was describing.
The accounts of Luther's suicide are not only somewhat late (IIUC about 40 years after his death), they are found in hostile (Roman Catholic) sources and are contradicted by contemporary accounts.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:26 am Moss writes:Moss sounds as if she thinks 50 years after the purported events robs the account of some degree of credibility!Most of the historical evidence for Nero persecuting Christians comes to us from the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote between 115-120 CE, at least fifty years after the events he was describing.
At least she has room for more mercy than Garraghan (endorsed as an authority on historical method by non other than James McGrath) who said reports that Luther committed suicide were to be discounted because they appeared as much as two whole decades after his death.
I was a bit uneasy to see this overly strident, and let's face it nasty, side of Philip Schaaf! How DARE the "Ultramontanist" Romanists even *suggest* that Luther committed suicide (due to remorse and guilt I suppose). It just seems a little "over the top". You can tell where the author stands in the religious debate between Christian sects (Reformed), even giving Luther a mere 15 minutes of fame before saying "he was useful to Protestantism at the time," as if it was not so now. As for moderate Roman Catholic critics, they are sufferable, but only to be polite. God forbid if one were to reach out his hand to him in greeting <brrr>.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:58 amThe accounts of Luther's suicide are not only somewhat late (IIUC about 40 years after his death), they are found in hostile (Roman Catholic) sources and are contradicted by contemporary accounts.
See Schaff
The point I was attempting to address seems to be getting a bit lost here.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:58 amThe accounts of Luther's suicide are not only somewhat late (IIUC about 40 years after his death), they are found in hostile (Roman Catholic) sources and are contradicted by contemporary accounts.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:26 am Moss writes:Moss sounds as if she thinks 50 years after the purported events robs the account of some degree of credibility!Most of the historical evidence for Nero persecuting Christians comes to us from the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus, who wrote between 115-120 CE, at least fifty years after the events he was describing.
At least she has room for more mercy than Garraghan (endorsed as an authority on historical method by non other than James McGrath) who said reports that Luther committed suicide were to be discounted because they appeared as much as two whole decades after his death.
See Schaff
Andrew Criddle
A gap of twenty years is considered to be at least some grounds for suspicion.¶ 260 LATE APPEARANCE OF TRADITION
It is typical of popular tradition that it is first heard of long after the time when the events it
reports are supposed to have occurred. Almost invariably there is a gap, more or less broad,
between the events and their first appearance in recorded history. Such a gap occurring in the
case of any report is enough to make it suspect from the start. Instances of such reports, found
on examination to be unverified, are without number. Thus, unaccountably tardy
firstmention of them in written record of any kind is a major argument used by critics in
discrediting such onetime general beliefs as the False Decretals, the Popess Joan, the
authenticity of the reputed works of Denis the Areopagite. Again, no contemporary
biographer of St. Thomas of Canterbury records that his mother was a Saracen princess
whom his father had married in the Holy Land. John Morris, "Legends about St.
Thomas," The Life and Martyrdom of St. Thomas Archbishop of Canterbury ( 2d ed., London,
1885), 52325.
That Luther committed suicide is a story first heard of some twenty years after his death,
when it began to be circulated by persons hostile to his memory. H. Grisar, Martin
Luther, his Life and Work, 57578. . . . . . Gilbert J. Garraghan, A Guide to Historical Method (1946).
I don't think Suetonius anywhere suggests that there was a group called "Chestians" or similar among Jews in Rome or among anyone anywhere, does he?andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:45 am The article accepts that the references to Christians in the time of Nero in Suetonius and Tacitus are both authentic (in the sense that Suetonius and Tacitus both wrote the passages). If so this prima-facie implies that there was a group named Christians (or Chrestians ) in Nero's Rome. It is unlikely that Suetonius and Tacitus are being independently anachronistic here.
Some have argued that the Christians (or Chrestians ) under Nero were different from what we mean by Christians but this does not seem to be what the article is proposing.
Andrew Criddle
I assume Andrew is referring to the "Nero reference" in Suetonius.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:37 pmI don't think Suetonius anywhere suggests that there was a group called "Chestians" or similar among Jews in Rome or among anyone anywhere, does he?andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:45 am The article accepts that the references to Christians in the time of Nero in Suetonius and Tacitus are both authentic (in the sense that Suetonius and Tacitus both wrote the passages). If so this prima-facie implies that there was a group named Christians (or Chrestians ) in Nero's Rome. It is unlikely that Suetonius and Tacitus are being independently anachronistic here.
Some have argued that the Christians (or Chrestians ) under Nero were different from what we mean by Christians but this does not seem to be what the article is proposing.
Andrew Criddle