Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Secret Alias »

What I'm looking for in Tertullian's work now, is an argument he gives that is more in line with a Greek logos kind of reasoning (I kind of hope to find that in his credo quia absurdum). I don't think I will find that, but maybe that should be my point?
I think the place to start is Celsus. Celsus lays bear the question of Christian logos vs the logos of the world. The problem is that we don't know when he wrote his 'True Word' (the title of his treatise). The usual dates are the age of Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus or Marcus Aurelius and Commodus because of a particular reference which sounds like he was writing when there were two Emperors ruling the Empire together.

Once you settle the issue of when Celsus was writing or take a stab at that you can - I think - take a stab at when Origen wrote his response (not a clear question because the text has been rewritten at least once by the admission of the 'narrator' (could be the voice of Origen or Eusebius IMHO). You see it is very clear that the work in which Celsus's True Word survives (Contra Celsum) was used extensively as part of Eusebius's own response to paganism in the early fourth century. This is well established. So we are dealing with a possible early fourth century revision of an earlier (possibly late second to mid third century) response to an original pagan work written sometime in the second century (i.e. either c. 161 or 176 CE).

Celsus himself seems to have had access to a Christian work which makes reference to Jesus as the true Logos. This is likely either Justin Martyr, Tatian or Clement of Alexandria (cf the Exhortation). Parts of Clement's works sound like responses to Celsus too.

So once you establish that there was a Christian-pagan dialogue in the latter half of the second century about Jesus as the 'true Logos' I think you can attempt to bring Tertullian into the discussion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Secret Alias »

And it is worth noting Celsus's attitude toward the Jewish Logos. From Book 4 it would seem that the argument was that the Jewish Logos inspired the Jews to sedition in Egypt but also much of the dysfunctional family behavior displayed in Genesis.

continues, is the (account of the) begetting of children where, although he has mentioned no names, it is evident that he is referring to the history of Abraham and Sarah. Cavilling also at the conspiracies of the brothers, he allies either to the story of Cain plotting against Abel, or, in addition, to that of Esau against Jacob; and (speaking) of a father's sorrow, he probably refers to that of Isaac on account of the absence of Jacob, and perhaps also to that of Jacob because of Joseph having been sold into Egypt. And when relating the crafty procedure of mothers, I suppose he means the conduct of Rebecca, who contrived that the blessing of Isaac should descend, not upon Esau, but upon Jacob. Now if we assert that in all these cases God interposed in a very marked degree, what absurdity do we commit?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Secret Alias »

So the Jewish logos is not the true logos even though it is clear from Origen that his opponents would not agree:

Neither Jews nor Christians, then, are wrong in assuming that the prophets spoke under divine influence; but they are in error who form erroneous opinions respecting Him who was expected by the prophets to come, and whose person and character were made known in their "true discourses." (κατὰ τὸν ἀληθῆ τῶν προφητῶν λόγον κεκήρυκται.) [3.3]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Secret Alias »

Celsus, therefore, not investigating in a spirit of impartiality the facts, which are related by the Egyptians in one way, and by the Hebrews in another, but being bewitched, as it were, in favour of the former, accepted as true the statements of those who had oppressed the strangers, and declared that the Hebrews, who had been unjustly treated, had departed from Egypt after revolting against the Egyptians,--not observing how impossible it was for so great a multitude of rebellious Egyptians to become a nation, which, dating its origin from the said revolt, should change its language at the time of its rebellion, so that those who up to that time made use of the Egyptian tongue, should completely adopt, all at once, the language of the Hebrews! Let it be granted, however, according to his supposition, that on abandoning Egypt they did conceive a hatred also of their mother tongue, how did it happen that after so doing they did not rather adopt the Syrian or Phoenician language, instead of preferring the Hebrew, which is different from both? But the logos (ὁ λόγος) seems to me to demonstrate that the statement is false, which makes those who were Egyptians by race to have revolted against Egyptians, and to have left the country, and to have proceeded to Palestine, and occupied the land now called Judea. For Hebrew was the language of their fathers before their descent into Egypt; and the Hebrew letters, employed by Moses in writing those five books which are deemed sacred by the Jews, were different from those of the Egyptians. [3.6]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Zhukov
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Zhukov »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:34 pm Celsus, therefore, not investigating in a spirit of impartiality the facts, which are related by the Egyptians in one way, and by the Hebrews in another, but being bewitched, as it were, in favour of the former, accepted as true the statements of those who had oppressed the strangers, and declared that the Hebrews, who had been unjustly treated, had departed from Egypt after revolting against the Egyptians,--not observing how impossible it was for so great a multitude of rebellious Egyptians to become a nation, which, dating its origin from the said revolt, should change its language at the time of its rebellion, so that those who up to that time made use of the Egyptian tongue, should completely adopt, all at once, the language of the Hebrews! Let it be granted, however, according to his supposition, that on abandoning Egypt they did conceive a hatred also of their mother tongue, how did it happen that after so doing they did not rather adopt the Syrian or Phoenician language, instead of preferring the Hebrew, which is different from both? But the logos (ὁ λόγος) seems to me to demonstrate that the statement is false, which makes those who were Egyptians by race to have revolted against Egyptians, and to have left the country, and to have proceeded to Palestine, and occupied the land now called Judea. For Hebrew was the language of their fathers before their descent into Egypt; and the Hebrew letters, employed by Moses in writing those five books which are deemed sacred by the Jews, were different from those of the Egyptians. [3.6]
Well this is crazy, very interesting. For now I can't really give a solid reply to your findings (since my knowledge in this field won't allow me to), but I'll definitely do some research and try to implement it in my thesis. It's an interesting view and you could possibly write a whole new paper on this subject. Celsus wrote in around roughly the same time as Tertullian I see, Minucius Felix is another name that keeps showing up.
If you feel comfortable in doing do, and if you want, you could always message me your full name (same goes for others who helped me here) so I could acknowledge you and give you some credit in my thesis.
iskander
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by iskander »

Zhukov wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:26 am
iskander wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:42 am Are you looking for a pretext to write an essay about faith in the divine?


The Rule of Faith

" The word rule (Latin regula, Gr. kanon) means a standard by which something can be tested, and the rule of faith means something extrinsic to our faith, and serving as its norm or measure. Since faith is Divine and infallible, the rule of faith must be also Divine and infallible; and since faith is supernatural assent to Divine truths upon Divine authority, the ultimate or remote rule of faith must be the truthfulness of God in revealing Himself. But since Divine revelation is contained in the written books and unwritten traditions (Vatican Council, I, ii), the Bible and Divine tradition must be the rule of our faith; since, however, these are only silent witnesses and cannot interpret themselves, they are commonly termed "proximate but inanimate rules of faith". Unless, then, the Bible and tradition are to be profitless, we must look for some proximate rule which shall be animate or living. "
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05766b.htm


To be or not to be
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them.
"these are only silent witnesses and cannot interpret themselves, they are commonly termed "proximate but inanimate rules of faith". Unless, then, the Bible and tradition are to be profitless, we must look for some proximate rule which shall be animate or living. " This last sentence, I think, is what's been bothering me. But I think I'm overcomplicating things. Perhaps the moment you find that standard - external to faith - in the world, is the moment you lost your faith? So, that's why Tertullian thinks philosophy is the father of all the heresies, they can't trust or take faith as it is revealed.
Thank you for your reply.
I have never read Tertullian , nor any other of his comrades. And I do not understand the text I have posted from Advent. I posted it to know how you would react .

We are invited to have faith in the infallible revealed word of god, but this infallible god is also found in the history of human activity named tradition--Written Law and Oral Law, which sounds very familiar to me. and which is very unacceptable.

But the Bible is declared to be dead ( inanimate) and another living rule is offered. Clearly the ' proximate' living rule of faith is the Mother Church in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, the Immaculate Bride of Christ , as governed by the Pope , the Vicar of God on Earth and keeper of the keys-- which is repugnant .

Good luck
Secret Alias
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Secret Alias »

Sure no worries. If I have time I will go through every relevant logos reference in Contra Celsum for you and post it here and other interesting references in Clement and Eusebius.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by andrewcriddle »

Zhukov wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:26 am "these are only silent witnesses and cannot interpret themselves, they are commonly termed "proximate but inanimate rules of faith". Unless, then, the Bible and tradition are to be profitless, we must look for some proximate rule which shall be animate or living. " This last sentence, I think, is what's been bothering me. But I think I'm overcomplicating things. Perhaps the moment you find that standard - external to faith - in the world, is the moment you lost your faith? So, that's why Tertullian thinks philosophy is the father of all the heresies, they can't trust or take faith as it is revealed.
I don't think the much later disputes between Protestants and Roman Catholics about authority are particularly helpful for understanding Tertullian's position.

I think Tertullian would say that there is no solid standard to be found in the world, without faith. The philosophers sought such a standard and their notorious disagreements show that this search is misguided. Either you accept axioms which you cannot justify from prior principles or you are left without any solid standards at all. (Tertullian then argues that those who accept the need for faith should accept Christianity as the true faith.)

Andrew Criddle
Zhukov
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Zhukov »

@Iskander, thanks! I had found that article on the rule of faith, there are a lot of translations of Tertullians work on that side
@Secret Alias, also thanks a lot, didn't expect this kind of help. Eric Osborn wrote a bit on Clement too in this work on Tertullian, gonna read up on that as well, I'll post it here.
@andrewcriddle, I don't think that either. And, I too think that's what it boils down to with Tertullian, I was just looking for some kind of reasoning why Christianity is the true faith in his eyes. A kind of reasoning that leans more towards a 'greek' style of reasoning. But maybe that's just the point, that this greek logos won't get us anywhere.

At the moment I'm reading a bit out of 'God in dispute' by Roger Olsen, he wrote an imaginary conversation between Celsus, Tertullian, Ireneus and Clement there.
Secret Alias
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Re: Tertullian, Rule of Faith and Truth

Post by Secret Alias »

(one of) The first words of Celsus's book:
"There is," he says, "an authoritative account from the very beginning, respecting which there is a constant agreement among all the most learned nations, and cities, and men." And yet he will not call the Jews a learned nation in the same way in which he does the Egyptians, and Assyrians, and Indians, and Persians, and Odrysians, and Samothracians, and Eleusinians."

ὅτι ἔστιν ἀρχαῖος ἄνωθεν λόγος, περὶ ὃν δὴ ἀεὶ καὶ τὰ ἔθνη τὰ σοφώτατα καὶ πόλεις καὶ ἄνδρες σοφοὶ κατεγένοντο. Καὶ οὐκ ἐβουλήθη ἔθνος σοφώτατον εἰπεῖν κἂν παραπλησίως Αἰγυπτίοις καὶ Ἀσσυρίοις καὶ Ἰνδοῖς καὶ Πέρσαις καὶ Ὀδρύσαις καὶ Σαμόθρᾳξι καὶ Ἐλευσινίοις τοὺς Ἰουδαίους.
Be aware that ἄνωθεν = 'from above' so there is a clever play on words here literally 'There is a from above logos from the very beginning ...' clearly a parody of the opening words of the gospel (= our 'according to John').
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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