Did Ignatius say that Pilate crucified Jesus?

[Giuseppe]

The earliest Christian writer outside the canon to link Jesus with Pilate was Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, writing ca. A. D. 110. He does not implicate Pilate in the events of Jesus life, but mentions him in order to date that life in the 30s (in the time -- Greek epi -- of Pontius Pilate), this being the normal way in Antiquity of dating events by reference to the reign of emperors, kings or governors.

My question: Did Ignatius say ONLY that Jesus was crucified during Pilate? Or did he add ALSO that Pilate was the killer of Jesus?

If only the first case, then the possibility is open that for Ignatius the killers of Jesus weren't the Romans.

[Giuseppe]

It seems really that Pilate and Herod are useful in Ignatius only to date the death of Jesus, NOT to specify who were his killers.

Could Pilate be described as the killer only in a second moment, but not in the Gospel read by Ignatius?

[Giuseppe]

It seems that the principal and only interest of Ignatius, by mentioning Pilate, Herod and John, is to fix an objective dating of the death and resurrection of Jesus. As if his readers knew who were the killers of Jesus, but didn't know WHEN Jesus was crucified.

Who were the killers of Jesus, then, even assuming his death under (but not by) Pilate and Herod?

The answer may be only : the "Jews" or the demons.

[DCHindley]

It seems that the principal and only interest of Ignatius, by mentioning Pilate, Herod and John, is to fix an objective dating of the death and resurrection of Jesus. As if his readers knew who were the killers of Jesus, but didn't know WHEN Jesus was crucified.

Who were the killers of Jesus, then, even assuming his death under (but not by) Pilate and Herod?

The answer may be only : the "Jews" or the demons.

What does it mean to be "under" (I think epi actually means "upon" = "at" the time of ....)

To the Magnesians, in the longer Greek form, says "καὶ πρὸς τῶν χριστοκτόνων Ἰουδαίων" which the translator rendered "and at the hands of the Christkilling Jews." The Greek word pros means "from, at the hand of" with Verbs of having, receiving, etc., per Perseus. The verb of receiving would be ὑποστάντι "underwent (the suffering, τὸ πάθος)."

But waddooIknow.

DCH

[arnoldo]

FWIW, Justin Martyr, First Apology (CHAPTER XIIL ) has the following passage.

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar;
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html

[DCHindley]

FWIW, Justin Martyr, First Apology (CHAPTER XIIL ) has the following passage.

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar;
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html

Same ἐπὶ, though. In the Genitive this is roughly "in the time of."

[arnoldo]

Ignatius says that Pilate sentenced Jesus.

On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... onger.html

[Peter Kirby]

Ignatius says that Pilate sentenced Jesus.

On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... onger.html

No, this is only found in the ‘longer’ recension of Ignatius to the Trallians. (I apologize if the page isn’t clear enough.)

[arnoldo]

It seems that the principal and only interest of Ignatius, by mentioning Pilate, Herod and John, is to fix an objective dating of the death and resurrection of Jesus. As if his readers knew who were the killers of Jesus, but didn't know WHEN Jesus was crucified. . .

It seems Ignatius mentions Pilate and Herod primarily to argue against docetic doctrines regarding the death of Jesus rather than to fix a date.

I give glory to Jesus Christ the God who
bestowed such wisdom upon you; for I have perceived
that ye are established in faith immovable, being as
it were nailed on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ,
in flesh and in spirit, and firmly grounded in love in
the blood of Christ, fully persuaded as touching our
Lord that He is truly of the race of David according
to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and
power, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John
that _all righteousness might be fulfilled_ by Him,
truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under
Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html

¿ Pero, que se yo?

[Giuseppe]

It seems Ignatius mentions Pilate and Herod primarily to argue against docetic doctrines regarding the death of Jesus rather than to fix a date.

I give glory to Jesus Christ the God who
bestowed such wisdom upon you; for I have perceived
that ye are established in faith immovable, being as
it were nailed on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ,
in flesh and in spirit, and firmly grounded in love in
the blood of Christ, fully persuaded as touching our
Lord that He is truly of the race of David according
to the flesh, but Son of God by the Divine will and
power, truly born of a virgin and baptized by John
that _all righteousness might be fulfilled_ by Him,
truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under
Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html

¿ Pero, que se yo?

I am saying that to fix a date for Jesus death is part of the polemic against docetism. For example, if I insist saying that Hitler died in 1945 is surely to polemize against who says that the news about his death was mere Sovietic propaganda (because the real Hitler lives still today in Argentina).