Another academic mythicist: Paul McGrane

[neilgodfrey]

If put to proof, I can give examples of good fiction set against the Holocaust or European conquests

But if there is no difference between fiction and a real fact that actually happened.... if that is what you are arguing?

[neilgodfrey]

Neil

Good recovery. The fact remains that there was nothing about what I quoted to which the Holocaust was salient, and it was to that that your rebuttal was addressed. . . .

I think we're talking past each other. I really don't understand your replies or where you are coming from. "Good recovery"?

[Paul the Uncertain]

Neil

But if there is no difference between fiction and a real fact that actually happened.... if that is what you are arguing?

History and historical fiction have much in common, as we've discussed. That doesn't imply that I hold that there is literally no difference ever between them, nor that all instances are unclassifiable.

The original issue was far narrower: is Paul Steven McGrane an academic? The relevance of historical fiction was only that it was a historical novelist who characterized McGrane as an academic.

"Good recovery"?

You made a witty and artful answer to my objection against your imparting a genocidal perspective to a historical novelist's remark about an aesthetic aspect of history, which I had quoted with (smilied) approval. In American English, you were complimented for your art and wit. I stood by the objection, however.

[neilgodfrey]

"Good recovery"?

You made a witty and artful answer to my objection against your imparting a genocidal perspective to a historical novelist's remark about an aesthetic aspect of history, which I had quoted with (smilied) approval. In American English, you were complimented for your art and wit. I stood by the objection, however.

You appear to have misunderstood my perspective and point of my remark if you interpreted as being a "genocidal perspective". Or I have no idea what you mean by "genocidal perspective".

[neilgodfrey]

History and historical fiction have much in common, as we've discussed. That doesn't imply that I hold that there is literally no difference ever between them, nor that all instances are unclassifiable.

What are some instances that you do think are "classifiable"?

How do you distinguish between what is historical fiction and what is history -- if that is what you are suggesting you can do when you say one is not to imply that you think there is "literally no difference ever between them"?

[Paul the Uncertain]

Neil

You appear to have misunderstood my perspective and point of my remark if you interpreted as being a "genocidal perspective".

That may be. Nevertheless, the Holocaust had not been discussed in this thread until you brought it up here. There is no reasonable connection between a novelist's brief explanation of something that attracted her to her genre and the Holocaust.

As to the second post, our last long conversation on those points ended when I accepted your advice that there was little community interest in our continuing. I estimate that the community's tastes haven't changed much since then. At least such a discussion was on-topic in that thread, but not in this one.

I answered your previous post's specific question. If there was something about that answer that was unclear (or forgotten from our earlier discussion), then maybe a PM would straighten it out.

[Secret Alias]

I know these discussions degenerate into abstract nonsense but I happened to be passing through and wanted to provide a concrete example of the problem. My mother recently passed away and I ran across a diary and a renewed sense of interest in my (strange) family history. I knew, for instance, some legends and myth about my family's (alleged) messianic pedigree. I witnessed first hand some strange things going on in my family when I was younger. I also knew that virtually everyone in my family spent time in concentration camps including my grandfather who (as a Jew living outside of Germany) had his German citizenship taken away from him https://books.google.com/books?id=2FxmA ... gQ6AEIMTAB was interned at the Velodrome in Paris and was sent on to a concentration camp in North Africa https://books.google.com/books?id=ks6CD ... er&f=false until he was liberated by the American armed forces, that he joined the American army pushing back the Nazis in north Africa and later Italy (where he met and married a beautiful Italian bride) and ultimately that he was the first to report mass graves at Dachau https://books.google.com/books?id=8UxpA ... gQ6AEIPTAD.

None of these details surprised me in the slightest. Yet what took me aback was a discovery that the famous Spanish novelist Max Aub recorded a lengthy incident that took place in camp at Djelfa involving my grandfather that had apparent messianic implications. According to Aub my grandfather stood up to the guards - making the case to the Arab guards that Jews shouldn't be forced to work on Saturday. For this he received unimaginable punishments to the point Aub described him as 'the Parisian Godman' who held the world together and many other apocalyptic references.

Now of course there are no healing narratives, no miracles. But there is a repeated claim throughout Aub's works that my grandfather endured unimaginable tortures as a martyr on behalf of the Jewish cause.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=10&p=72701

The reference which specifically names the 'Parisian Godman' as my grandfather appears in his unpublished works. Every scholar who has ever studied the memoirs of Aub has identified my grandfather Gaston Gundelfinger as the (fictional) Isaac Guldenfïnger:

Outre ceux dont témoignent plusieurs poèmes de Journal de Djefa, Aub en fournira deux exemples significatifs dans dans « Situation des réfugiés qui se trouvent en Afrique ». Le premier renvoie aux cachots de Caffarelli, le deuxième révèle l'existence de sévices racistes : Que pense des Nord- Américains le procureur de Bucarest [...] emprisonné dans les oubliettes mortifères de Djelfa pour avoir écrit à sa femme qu'il y avait des scorpions dans le camp ? Que pense des Nations unies Isaac Guldenfïnger juif de bonne souche que l'on obligeait à travailler les samedis, à coups de crosse, le corps brisé après avoir résisté de façon incroyable criant que sa religion le lui interdisait ?49 Des manifestations d'antisémitisme sont bien perceptibles à Djelfa.

Au nombre de 179 en mai 42, les juifs font généralement l'objet d'un décompte spécial, sont jugés « dans l'ensemble dangereux et indésirables » et nécessitant une étroite surveillance50. Interdits de travail, ils ne pouvaient bénéficier des suppléments alimentaires fort nécessaires51. Les sévices racistes à l'encontre du dénommé Isaac Guldenfinger, Aub les racontera à nouveau dans « Le cireur de chaussures du Père Éternel ». Guldenfinger y devient le Parisien Godman, victime des mêmes violences, enfermé quasiment en permanence dans les cachots de Caffarelli : « mais il ne meurt pas, ne tombe même pas malade. Il supporte tout. Il rêve de retourner régenter son magasin de fourrures, boulevard des Capucines52. » Dans le contexte également fictionnel du « Cimetière de Djelfa », sans le nommer, Pardinas (l'épistolier narrateur) lui attribue un autre destin et parle de « ce juif », resté à Djelfa, associé avec le bijoutier Mohamed ben Cara, et « qui ne voulait pas travailler le samedi »53. Peut-être le relevé nominatif des internés juifs d'Afrique du Nord dressé par Jacob Oliel, en signalant à Djelfa un Gaston Gundelfinger de nationalité allemande54, désigne-t-il le même personnage. Quant au périmètre restreint, là où se trouvent relégués « les idiots, les fous, les plus sales, les soi-disant voleurs », Aub révèle que « [la] nuit le responsable du camp spécial — un Espagnol vendu — [entrait] sous les tentes pour y [frapper] les tristes bougres avec une chaîne de fer55 » et qu'il eut lui-même l'occasion de connaître de l'intérieur ce sinistre endroit : La police interne du camp, remplie de mouchards, prenait grand soin de renseigner l'administration sur la filiation politique de chacun.

Tu te souviens de ce juif qui ne voulait pas travailler les samedis ? Celui qu'on envoyait trois fois sur quatre au camp disciplinaire ? Celui-là est aussi resté ici. Il avait changé trop de fois de camp, à force de travailler " sous le fouet - disait-il - beaucoup de samedis ". Il s'est mis à le faire avec Mohamed Ben Cara, le joaillier. Celui qui fut condamné à six ans de prison, ce fut Gribouille - son nom importe peu -, ce sergent qui frappait n'importe qui avec sa cravache : parce qu'on s'était trompé de nom, parce qu'on avait répondu " présent " en avance ou en retard, parce qu'on avait donné de l'argent à un type qui s'était échappé (sans le savoir : ce fut Barbena qui a payé les pots cassés, tu te souviens ?). Le même qui a pendu le Malagueno à l'envers et est monté sur lui à califourchon, tandis qu'il le battait sur la plante des pieds. Pour les tortures le monde n'avance pas de grand-chose. C'est incroyable avec la quantité d'inventions que l'on voit. Mais est-ce que ça peut faire autant de mal que de t'arracher les ongles? et c'est vieux comme le monde.

Quick English translation:

In addition to those shown in several of the poems in the Diary of Djefa, Aub will provide two significant examples in the "Situation of Refugees in Africa". The first refers to Caffarelli's dungeons, the second reveals the existence of racist abuses: What do North Americans think of the prosecutor of Bucharest ... imprisoned in Djelfa's deadly forgetting for writing to his wife that there Had scorpions in the camp? What is the opinion of the United Nations Isaac Guldenfïnger Jew of good strain who was obliged to work on Saturdays with his rifle butt, the body broken after having resisted in an incredible way, shouting that his religion forbade it? 49 Demonstrations of anti-Semitism are Well perceived in Djelfa.

Numbering 179 in May 2004, Jews are generally the subject of a special count, are considered "generally dangerous and undesirable" and require close supervision50. Forbidden to work, they could not benefit from the very necessary nutritional supplements51. The racist abuse against the man named Isaac Guldenfinger, Aub will recount them again in "Shoe shiner of the Eternal Father". Guldenfinger became the Parisian Godman, the victim of the same violence, locked almost permanently in the dungeons of Caffarelli: "but he does not die, does not even fall ill. It supports everything. He dreams of returning to regiment his fur store, boulevard des Capucines52. In the fictional context of the Djelfa Cemetery, Pardinas (the epistolary narrator) attributes to him another destiny and speaks of "this Jew", who remained in Djelfa, associated with the jeweler Mohamed ben Cara, and "Who did not want to work on Saturday" 53. Perhaps the nominative statement of the Jewish internees of North Africa drawn up by Jacob Oliel, pointing out to Djelfa a Gaston Gundelfinger of German nationality54, designates the same personage. As for the restricted perimeter, where "idiots, fools, dirtiest, so-called thieves" are relegated, Aub reveals that "[t] he night the head of the special camp - a Spaniard sold - [entered] The tents to hit the sad bugger with an iron chain, "and that he himself had the opportunity of knowing from the inside this sinister place: The internal police of the camp, full of spies, took great care To inform the administration of the political affiliation of each.

Remember this Jew who did not want to work on Saturdays? Who was sent three times out of four to the disciplinary camp? This one also stayed here. He had changed too many times, by working "under the whip," he said, "many Saturdays." He began to do so with Mohamed Ben Cara, the jeweler. The one who was sentenced to six years' imprisonment was Gribouille - his name does not matter - that sergeant who struck anyone with his whip: because they had erred in name because they had answered " Present "in advance or late, because money had been given to a guy who had escaped (without knowing it: it was Barbena who paid the broken pots, do you remember?). The same who hanged the Malagueno upside down and stood on him astride, while he beat him on the soles of his feet. For torture the world does not advance much. It's incredible with the amount of inventions we see. But can it do as much harm as tearing your nails? And it is as old as the world.

My point here is the question of how do we separate history from fiction. My grandfather was definitely at the camp. Aub too. My father is the only inmate whose name resembles 'Isaac Guldenfinger.' What's more my mother inherited a curious use of the name 'Isaac' (one which I never encountered from any Jew anywhere else) where 'Itzik' meant 'Jew.' So for instance if we were on a subway together she'd say 'warme' (hot) to mean 'there's a gay person' and 'Itzik' to mean Jew. Moreover my mother did mention that whenever the topic of his experience at Djelfa came up she knew he suffered horribly. In fact she said that when he died of cancer, the doctors marveled at his superhuman ability to endure pain. He kept moving and living despite being 'full of cancer.' My mom was the same way.

In fact when he was finally given morphine he was back in the concentration camp (at least in his own imagination) screaming, shouting acting crazy making reference to the torture etc. He also used to tell my mom that all Arabs were gay apparently alluding to being raped in the prison (which appears in Aub's works).

So on the one hand it kind of makes sense that my grandfather was the messianic 'Parisian godman' of Aub's works. But for me at least there are absolute difficulties too. My grandfather was not observant (at least as far as I knew). He was a Communist. I can't imagine him going to the mat for Sabbath observance. Nevertheless there is Aub's testimony which doesn't make sense (after all the camp was filled with Jewish communist rather than rabbis and cantors).

I guess my question is - how do we separate myth from history with an event that (allegedly) took place seventy years ago? If we can't do this in the case of recent history and a well known witness how much more difficult for something ancient without discernible human attestation.

[Paul the Uncertain]

Secret Alias

I was sorry to read that your mother died recently. Please accept my condolences.

I know these discussions degenerate into abstract nonsense

The discussions degenerate because the problem is hard and its conceptual suppositions are fuzzy. If there is no sturdy fence separating all works of fiction from all works of history, then the project of making a dichotomy lacks sense.

You argue a convincing case that Max Aub's writings refer to real events and people. The reference is extensive enough that you can identify your grandfather specifically within a general circumstance that Aub explicitly named, the internment of Jews in North Africa, a real event.

Equally, your findings point to Aub not reporting all the facts as they actually occurred. An analyst could say that Aub writes about a possible world which resembles the actual world, but also differs from the actual world.

For those with an interest in the complexities of the issue, and who prefer concrete case studies to abstractions, I recommend Gore Vidal's essay in defense of his novel about Abraham Lincoln:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1988/04 ... -exchange/

It is my radical view that Americans are now sufficiently mature to be shown a Lincoln as close to the original as it is possible for us so much later in time to render.

Now, Vidal's goals are not representative of other novelists', in particular, there is no reason to implicate Aub in any parallel pursuit. Such is the curse of the concrete case. Nevertheless, there is the goal that Vidal had for his novel, which he implemented by real and extensive research - including earwitness testimony transmitted through his own family. Classify that, dichotomizers.

[Secret Alias]

Thanks. I think that's my point. Certainty is the problem. If you want to say 'hey, the gospel has fictitious elements' or 'the gospel has historical elements' I don't think these are mutually exclusive positions. With such a loose framework it also isn't impossible to suspect that the gospel developed from an 'eyewitness testimony' - as long as it is acknowledged that the gospel writer was an artist like Aub. Again, allow me a small indulgence. I think that because serious white Protestant people dominate and have always dominated the study of the Bible the Bible can only be conceived along 'serious white Protestant' lines. But if artistically minded people look at the same evidence they would tend to see it as an artistic creation where no clear dividing lines between 'history' and 'artistic license' exist.

The example of Aub. Aub was writing about his experiences in the camps even though what appears on paper was not his experience. Indeed what is now written on paper ultimately became his experience, his remembrance. I would bet that - in the way my own memory of my past has been shaped by things I said and encountered (i.e. picture albums perused by me long after the actual experience 'captured' in those pictures). To the same end, I don't think you can get beyond that same opaqueness with regards to the gospel narrative.

[neilgodfrey]

Nevertheless, there is the goal that Vidal had for his novel, which he implemented by real and extensive research - including earwitness testimony transmitted through his own family. Classify that, dichotomizers.

That the first sentence should be thought to pose a problem for "dichotomizers" tells me that there has been very little agreement on understanding what the debate between "history" and "fiction" is actually about, including the very fundamental distinctions between data, information and evidence; between sources and events; between events and history.

The first sentence is not pointing to "history"; it points to "data" to be assessed like any other data that requires interpretation and analysis etc.