Reconstructing Celsus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

Even though the Jew clearly and repeatedly makes the connection between the Christians as thiasoi and Dionysus it should be noted that Jews were as a group identified as thiasoi. A Roman governor of Asia and a Roman prefect of Egypt used the term thiasoi to refer to synagogues (cf. A.J. 14.216 and Philo De Somniis 2.127). Nevertheless the use of the terminology and its association with Christianity might explain why groups of Christians were described as 'heresies.'
Until recently the theory of Wilamowitz prevailed, according to which the philosophers’ schools were religious societies (thiasoi), dedicated to the worship of the gods, or the Muses in this particular case.2 Wilamowitz started from the presumption that all such ancient societies had cult characteristics and that, for this reason, they were recognized by Athenian law, giving them the status of legal bodies. From an outsider’s
viewpoint the philosophical schools would therefore have appeared to be religious societies devoted to the worship of the Muses, while internally
they would have developed functions like those of modern universities. In the Academy and Peripatos, above all, there would have been activity in
scientific research and teaching based on a division of duties between teachers old and young, and carried out in a series of public lectures and
private seminars.

Wilamowitz’s theory has attracted criticism and objections. In particular, it has been discovered that certain elements which for Wilamowitz
were typical of a thiasos (statues of the Muses and their worship) were shared by other institutions like the gymnasia and children’s schools, and
were therefore not by themselves enough to support the identification of philosophical schools as religious societies.3 To state that the philosophical
schools were institutions of common ownership in which the scholarch (the head of the school) was the single owner of the property and all
the fixtures has become unacceptable;4 nor is there clear, concrete proof to lead one to say that the philosophical schools were organized like thiasoi devoted to the worship of the Muses. Still less does the assumption that the schools resorted to this device to obtain the status of a legal body bear up, since such a concept was foreign to the Greek world. So it has been assumed that the philosophers’ schools were instead secular institutions with educational aims directed towards propagation of useful knowledge. They would have been supported by private funds and have
had nothing to do with the state and therefore no need for any authorization for their existence and activity.5

But there is no lack of support for Wilamowitz’s theory, particularly as regards the Academy. There would seem to be no serious reason to
oppose the recognition of thiasos characteristics in the Athenian philosophical schools. If anything, the need for the legal and religious
device of an association (koinon) devoted to the Muses, developed with time in the case of the Academy: some think it might have become necessary in the second phase of the school’s history, at the point when there was the prospect that a poor non-citizen philosopher such as Xenocrates would become scholarch.6 As far as the Peripatos goes, the theory7 that it was a permanent foundation much like elementary schools or funeral associations seems to be the correct one. The Peripatos was created out of the legacy of Aristotle, who had as his aim not the provision of education for the young nor the worship of the Muses, but rather the fulfilment of the ideals of the theoretical life (bios theoretikos), the shared pursuit of philosophy (sunphilosophein) which was one of the methods he indicated for spending periods of leisure (schole–) with one’s friends (Arist. EN ix.1172a1–8).

It seems clear from what has been said above that there is a general interest in the initial foundation of the schools, particularly the Academy
and the Peripatos. From Wilamowitz on, the Academy has been seen as the prototype for every school, and reconstructions of all other schools
(primarily the Peripatos) have been modelled on the blueprint of its organization and structure. But it is also evident that the schools did not
always have the same characteristics and organization, nor could such characteristics and organization (nor their aims) be the same for all the
schools for the whole of their long existence.

For example, despite interesting points of similarity, there are important differences between the Academy and Peripatos, on the one hand,
and Epicurus’ Garden8 on the other. Its organization, more than that of any other school, was based on principles of emulation, commemoration
and imitation.9 Since one of the great aspirations of Epicurean philosophy was the imitation of divinity, the emulation of those who had reached
a state of maximum perfection in imitating the gods – Epicurus, Metrodorus, Hermarchus and Polyaenus (the so-called leaders or kathegemones)
– was, for students in the Garden, a primary and vital consequence. Already among the first generations of Epicureans the idea of kathe–
gemones gave rise to an ideal model of a ‘shared life’ (contubernium), which took shape as ‘many members of one body’ (Sen. Ep. 33.4). There was no attempt to achieve a meticulous hierarchical organization in which philosophoi, philologoi (‘scholars’), kathegetai (‘professors’) and sunetheis (‘intimates’) were distinguished.10 The ideal of freedom of speech (parrhêsia) between teachers and students, the basis of a common lifestyle
inspired by the pedagogical aims of friendship, kindliness and goodwill prevailed. That lifestyle was founded on the practice of common celebration,
with festivals and feasts, of holidays kept in memory of Epicurus and other friends and family who had died prematurely, like Metrodorus,
Polyaenus and Epicurus’ brothers.11 We know of at least five cults celebrated within the school: the annual funeral cult which Epicurus had
established in memory of his parents and brothers; the two celebrations of Epicurus himself – an annual one, on the twentieth day of the month of
Gamelion, his birthday, and one on the twentieth of each month, in honour also of Metrodorus. There was also a day devoted to commemorating
the birthdays of Epicurus’ brothers, in the month of Poseideon, and a day for Polyaenus, which occurred in the month of Metageitnion
We also have some interesting information on the internal organization and lifestyle of the Academy and Peripatos. A famous fragment of the
comic playwright Epicrates12 describes how Plato, Speusippus and Menedemus tried to distinguish and define the various species of animals
and plants. Aristotle’s writings speak of the use made by the philosopher of tablets, anatomical charts, diagrams and other teaching aids in his lectures.13

In the last century there was a desire to find in these accounts, and especially in that of Epicrates, confirmation of the suggestion that the
Academy and Peripatos were prototypes of modern universities. Plato was seen as the first organizer of scientific research in the Academy, and it
was assumed that the school had regular programmes and seminars in which students were assigned research projects under the guidance of
their master.14 But these are dangerous theories, fully rebutted by successive critics and with little plausibility since they are tied too closely to
modern culture, experience and modes of thought. From a later period, we do have a report about Carneades’ lectures (scholai) being written up
and read (and criticized) at a next meeting.15 Unfortunately we know nothing about the Stoa.
The individual institutions were run by a scholarch (prostate–
s, archo–n)
who could be chosen or appointed in di◊erent ways: the previous scholarch
could nominate his successor directly, before his death (Plato chose
Speusippus, Strato Lyco, Epicurus Hermarchus);16 the election could be
decided by a free vote (Xenocrates was elected as Speusippus’ successor;
Socratides as Crates’ successor).17 A scholarch could refuse the job in
favour of another member of the school (Socratides gave way to
Arcesilaus). As a rule the scholarch stayed in the job until his death: there
were two significant exceptions to this, both in the Academy: Lacydes
and Carneades of Cyrene retired from running the school while they
were still alive because of their health.18 But there are no examples of
joint scholarchs. The case of Mnesarchus and Dardanus, thought to have
been joint successors to Panaetius as head of the Stoa, is based on false
premisses.
In some schools there was in use a distinction between younger students
(neaniskoi) and older ones (presbuteroi), perhaps corresponding to a
di◊erent level of attainment.19 What is also significant is that, at least in
the cases of the Academy and the Garden, the schools were open to female
students: Axiothea and Lasthenia were pupils of Plato and Speusippus;
Batis, Boidion, Demetria, Edia, Leontion, Mammarion, Nikidion, and
Themista were active members of the Garden.20 Diogenes Laertius credits
Theophrastus with two thousand students: it is di√cult to establish
whether this number stands for the total number of the philosopher’s students
during his whole period of teaching, or the usual attendance at his
lectures.21
We know that Plato, Xenocrates and Polemo took up residence in the
garden of the Academy and that, during Polemo’s time as scholarch, some
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

Lynch however disagrees and says that thiasoi were different from philosophical schools at least according to the testimony of Aristotle. https://books.google.com/books?id=VaYV5 ... ol&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:24 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Stuart »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:51 am
Stuart wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:38 pmNote: 1 Timothy 3:1-5, 3:12 seem to be a response to the more ambiguous Titus 1:5-6 where elders are expected to be married, but in 1:7-8 the Bishop must be celibate (ἐγκρατῆ). But this is no surprise as 1 Timothy is a corrective of Titus conflating both Titus and 2 Timothy. Titus was recognized by Tatian (who advocated celibacy) but not 1 & 2 Timothy (apparently later). Different sects were responsible for each of the three pastorals. It should also be recognized that "Bishop" was interchangeable with Apostle (Acts 1:17) early on, and with Sect leader (teacher).
But ἐγκρατής in Titus 1:7 does not mean "celebate," just self-controlled in all ways. It could have a sexual connotation in situations where a predominant member might refrain from sex outside of a marriage, but the marital status is not assumed.

DCH
No it means celibacy. Protestant interpretation post Reformation preferred to think of it as meaning not getting drunk or abstinence from food or doing some out of control stuff (Party!). But this is silly and clearly apologetic and wrong: 1 Corinthians 7:1-11, 25-40 is not talking about anything other than sexual and marital relations and nothing else. The other instances in Titus and and the correction in 1 Timothy also concern marriage and sexual conduct. The word is not used by Paul in connection with not eating meat or sacrificed food to idols, even though several passages are devoted to this subject. Encratic is only used in the NT in reference to sex. Even Acts 24:25 and Galatians 5:23 though just a word in a list of virtues, and more clearly 2 Peter 1:6, especially in context of verse 1:4 preceding "that you may become partakers of the divine nature (θείας κοινωνοὶ φύσεως), having escaped the corruption in the world in (e.g., "due to") lust (ἐπιθυμᾳ). Lust is a reference to sex, and the perfect or Godly nature is understood in the context of Luke 20:34 (// Matthew 22:30)

The reference to extend to foods could be included as well Eusubius says that Tatian was the inventor of the sect of Encratites which forbid marriage and eating of meat. Hippolytus associates the word with meaning "abstaining from animal food, being water-drinkers and forbidding to marry." All meanings include abstinence from sex and not entering into marriage. The term added prohibition to eating of flesh (fish was different to them, considered to be spawned rather than via sex ... the ancients didn't realize fish liked to get busy too) and drinking of wine. This of course sounds like the Ebionites. But always celibacy.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

Exodus 9:1 - 3 LXX And the Lord said to Moses, Go in to Pharao, and thou shalt say to him, These things saith the Lord God of the Hebrews; Send my people away that they may serve me. If however thou wilt not send my people away, but yet detainest them (ἐγκρατεῖς αὐτοῦ): behold, the hand of the Lord shall be upon thy cattle in the fields, both on the horses, and on the asses, and on the camels and oxen and sheep, a very great mortality.

ἐγκρατεῖς αὐτοῦ here does not mean 'stop fucking them' i.e. the Israelites.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

The Hebrew original מַחֲזִ֥יק comes from a root which means to 'be severe.' That Epiphanius has two sects 'the encratites' and the Severians makes clear to me at least that the 'severians' are merely a translation of an original 'encratite' sect that were 'severe' to themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severian_Encratites The Aramaic term used in the Targums is מתקיף


tqp vb. e(u)/a to be strong
LJLA also (u/a); Mand. apparently a/u

G View a KWIC


1 to be(come) strong Com. P Ex1:7 : ܘܬܩܦܘ ܛܒ ܛܒ‏ . P StDan(1)11:5 : ܘܢܬܩܦ ܥܠܘܗܝ‏ . P Acts7:17 ; . BT Yev 63b(7) : מיתקף הוה תקיפא ‏ she would become extremely vehement (in her anger).

2 to conquer Syr. P Ex17:11 : ܬܩܿܦ ܗܘܐ ܐܝܣܪܝܠ‏ . P 1Ch19:12 : ܕܢܬܩܦ ܡܢܝ ܐܕܘܡ‏ .

3 (anger) to blaze up, be vehement Sam, Syr, JBA, LJLA. P 2S24:1 : ܠܡܬܩܦ ܒܐܝܣܪܝܠ‏ . BT Men 42a(26) : לא תיתקוף לך ‏ do not be upset. (a) impers. : to become angry Sam. SamTgJ Gen18:30 : אל ני יתקף למרי ואמללה ‏ may my Lord not get angry if I speak.

4 fig. : to have severe effect JLAtg, Syr. TgJ Jer52:6 : וֻתקֵיף כַפנָא בְקַרתָא ‏ famine became severe in the city. (a) (disease) to be grave Syr.

5 to be heavy JBA.


D View a KWIC


1 to make strong, to firm Com. Dan6:8 : לְקַיָּמָה קְיָם מַלְכָּא וּלְתַקָּפָה אֱסָר ‏ to affirm the king's treaty and strengthen the prohibition. TgJ Is9:10 : וְתַקֵיף יוי יָת סָנְאֵיה דְיִשׂרָאֵל ‏ the Lord strengthened Israel's enemy. Marqe 1.95 : דבי מתקפאתין סגי מכל עלמה ‏ for mine is (the power) to make them much stronger than the World. P Ps68:10 : ܐܬܟܪܗܬ ܘܐܢܬ ܬܩܦܬܗܿ‏ it grew ill but You strengthened it.

2 to fortify JLAtg, Syr. TgJ Is22:10 : וְיָת בָתֵי יְרוּשלַם מְנֵיתוֹן וְתָרַעתוּן בָתַיָא לְתַקָפָא שוּרָא ‏ you counted up Jerusalem's houses and broke up some of the houses in order to fortify the city-wall. P Neh3:4 : ܠܬܚܘ̈ܡܐ ܬܿܩܦ‏ .

3 to seize JBA.

4 to harden Sam.


C View a KWIC


1 (d.o. and w. b_) : to strengthen JLAtg, Syr. TgJ Jer5:3 : אַתקִיפוּ אַפֵיהוֹן מִטִינָרָא ‏ they made their faces stronger than flint.

2 to hold on tightly Qumran, JLAtg. 4QTQah 1,1:8 : אחדו בממר יעקב אבוכון אתקפו בדיני אברהם ו^ב^צדקת לוי ודילי ‏ . TgO Gen21:18 : וְאַתקִיפִי יָת יְדִיך בֵיה ‏ . TgJ Jer31:32 : בְיוֹמָא דְאַתקֵיפִית בְיַדהוֹן לְאַפָקוּתְהוֹן מֵאַרעָא דְמִצרָיִם ‏ . (a) to catch Sam.

3 w. ב ‏_ : to attack ‏ JLAtg, LJLA. TgO Gen19:9 : וְאַתקִיפוּ בְגַברָא בְלוֹט לַחדָא ‏ the attacked the man Lot exceedingly.

4 to raise an objection JBA. BTŠab 6a(14) : מתקיף לה רב פפא ‏ PN raises an objection to it.

5 to be very powerful LJLA. TgJob21:7 : מה דין רשיעיא ייחון אתקיפו לחוד קנו נכסין ‏ so why do the wicked live (since they?) became very powerful, acquired property?.

6 to urge, insist of one JLAtg, Sam. TgO Gen19:3 : וְאַתקֵיף בְהוֹן לַחדָא ‏ .


Dt View a KWIC


1 to be strengthened JLAtg, Sam, Syr. TgO Gen25:23 : וֻמַלכוּ מִמַלכוּ תִתַקַף ‏ one kingdom shall be made stronger than another. P 1Ch19:13 : ܬܩܦ ܘܐܬܬܩܦ‏ . (a) + עם ‏ : to be supportive or the like ‏ LJLA. PJ Ex16:9 : עינוהי מסתכלין בכל ארעא לאתקפא עם צדיקיא דלבהון שלים לותיה ‏ His eyes look around the whole land to support the righteous whose heart are devoted to Him completely.

2 to be made vehement Syr. P 2Ch25:10 : ܘܐܬܬܩܦܬ ܚܡܬܗ‏ .

3 + ב ‏ : to hold on with strength ‏ JLAtg, LJLA. TgJ Is56:4 : מִתרְעַן בְדִצבֵינָא וֻמִתַקְפִין בִקיָמִי ‏ who desire what I wish and hold on tight to my covenant. TgTospr 2Sam.21:19 : ואיתקף בה בקשתיה דדוד ולא יכיל לארמא יתיה מן ארעא ‏ he held on tight to David's bow but was not able to lift it up from the ground.


polel, pay/wcel View a KWIC


1 twqp : to strengthen PTA, LJLA. TN Deut3:28 : ותוקף/ותקף/ יתיה ‏ . (a) to make great PTA. TN Gen12:2 : ואתוקף ית שמך ‏ .


ethpolal, ethpay/wcel View a KWIC


1 to become strong, strengthen oneself PTA, LJLA. TN Ex1:20 : ואתוקפו/ויסתגון ‏ . (a) to be firm PTA. TN Deut31:7 : אתוקף ואזדרז ‏ . (b) to prevail PTA. TN Ex12:33 : ואתוקפו ‏ .

2 to seize, to hold PTA. TN Gen19:16 ; .

Not in Old Aramaic, where the original etymon yqp (=Arabic wqf, "to stand, withstand") still occurs
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Stuart »

Too bad Stephen the writers of the NT were speaking in Greek and not Hebrew (despite your claims otherwise about this or that NT word being a mis-translation of Yiddish or Swahili or Esperanto ... or whatever the ordering language is at Starbucks). Only the Greek matters here. And the Greek roots are ἐν + κράτος

Which means to "in" + "power/dominion/control" or to say "in control", "being strong" (not dissimilar to your Hebrew, showing the LXX was correctly translated)

For English speaking Protestant sensibilities (which are pretty much a thing of the past if Janet Jackson, Miley Cyrus and Katie Perry are representative of the modern strict religious Protestant upbringing), the dictionary uses words like "temperate" and "continent" or simply "controlling oneself." To say more would imply we are talking about sex :eek: . The English translations of the bible are at times comical in the way they talk around words meaning things like rape, incest, and fornicating (πορνος) :shock: - e.g., 1 Corinthians 5:1 says "immorality," 5:9 "immoral people." The German is more straight forward.

I gave the context for the use of the word in the NT, and it is always in the context of sexual relations. I could break it down more, such as the unmarried "fiancee" (again the euphemisms) is actually παρθένον, or "virgin." This implies a celibate life prior. And as with the example in 2 Peter 1:4-6, in 1 Corinthians 7:35 preceding the "virgin" it is said she has been able to devote to the Lord in an undivided way. This is precisely what Nuns are told, that they marry Christ in entering a vow of celibacy.

And as for food being part of Paul's formula for "self control", we see it is taken up separately from this in 8:4, where he just says it means nothing to eat the meat sacrificed to idols, since they are nothing. Clearly abstinence from meat is not called for , and so not what is meant by Encratic in the usage here.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

August 15 Stuart wrote "[ἐγκρατής] means celibacy."

August 16 (after my post) Stuart wrote "And the Greek roots are ἐν + κράτος [w]hich means to "in" + "power/dominion/control" or to say "in control", "being strong"

Stephan writes "You're welcome"
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

But you know Herbert I am learning just like you. Now I am wondering what the original Syriac Aramaic or Hebrew term which was translated as Encratite or Severian. This might open new possibilities.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Reconstructing Celsus

Post by Secret Alias »

Back to the OP the first bit of evidence for my theory of course is Secret Mark:

And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me." But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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