But Now That Faith Has Come

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
Galatians 3:23-25
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

There is a scholarly view that „faith“ in Gal 3:23-25 should be understand in a cosmic and eschatological sense. Benjamin Schliesser wrote (tranlation by Wayne Coppins)
Paul evidently understands pistis here [in Gal 3.23, 25] as a powerful eschatological event that marks a turn of the times and opposes the supremacy of the law that was previously in force in order to supplant this once and for all. Faith and Law come upon the stage as personified entities at a certain point in time of the salvation-historical drama. They possess a cosmic dimension that determines the reality as a whole and yet simultaneously a personal dimension that determines the entire person. Through the revelation of faith God has radically transformed the reality of the world and placed it under a new light. From this results the designations with which pistis has been understood [in scholarship]: “eschatological event of salvation” (F. Neugebauer), “divine event-reality”, “transubjective entity” (H. Binder), or “transindividual overall phenomenon” (P. Stuhlmacher).
If that's what Paul meant, could anyone explain how we should imagine this scenario? Is it similar to the esoteric „Age of Aquarius”? And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:29 pm .
Galatians 3:23-25
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

There is a scholarly view that „faith“ in Gal 3:23-25 should be understand in a cosmic and eschatological sense. Benjamin Schliesser wrote (tranlation by Wayne Coppins)
Paul evidently understands pistis here [in Gal 3.23, 25] as a powerful eschatological event that marks a turn of the times and opposes the supremacy of the law that was previously in force in order to supplant this once and for all. Faith and Law come upon the stage as personified entities at a certain point in time of the salvation-historical drama. They possess a cosmic dimension that determines the reality as a whole and yet simultaneously a personal dimension that determines the entire person. Through the revelation of faith God has radically transformed the reality of the world and placed it under a new light. From this results the designations with which pistis has been understood [in scholarship]: “eschatological event of salvation” (F. Neugebauer), “divine event-reality”, “transubjective entity” (H. Binder), or “transindividual overall phenomenon” (P. Stuhlmacher).
If that's what Paul meant, could anyone explain how we should imagine this scenario? Is it similar to the esoteric „Age of Aquarius”? And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?
Making some (possibly mistaken) assumptions about the integrity of the Pauline texts here, I would suggest that Paul, unlike more simplistic theologians who would wish to divide history merely into two great ages, used a more dispensational approach (if I may wrench that term away from modern evangelical fundamentalism for a moment). He contrasts the law with faith, but does not thereby divide the world into only two great ages. Abraham preceded the law, which came only under Moses:

Galatians 3.19: 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

I think the notion is that God deals with humanity in different, progressively revealed ways over time. He dealt with Noah differently than with Adam, with Abraham differently than with Noah, with Moses differently than with Abraham, perhaps with the Jewish kings and prophets differently than with Moses, and with believers after Christ differently still. He also seems to me to subject all of those past dispensations to "the end of the ages" under Jesus in a way that might be comparable to the Age of Aquarius, as you point out.

Paul praises Abraham's faith, and this faith is comparable to what is supposed to happen under Jesus, but Jesus adds more to the relationship.

Just my two cents.
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JoeWallack
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:29 pm .
Galatians 3:23-25
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

There is a scholarly view that „faith“ in Gal 3:23-25 should be understand in a cosmic and eschatological sense. Benjamin Schliesser wrote (tranlation by Wayne Coppins)
Paul evidently understands pistis here [in Gal 3.23, 25] as a powerful eschatological event that marks a turn of the times and opposes the supremacy of the law that was previously in force in order to supplant this once and for all. Faith and Law come upon the stage as personified entities at a certain point in time of the salvation-historical drama. They possess a cosmic dimension that determines the reality as a whole and yet simultaneously a personal dimension that determines the entire person. Through the revelation of faith God has radically transformed the reality of the world and placed it under a new light. From this results the designations with which pistis has been understood [in scholarship]: “eschatological event of salvation” (F. Neugebauer), “divine event-reality”, “transubjective entity” (H. Binder), or “transindividual overall phenomenon” (P. Stuhlmacher).
If that's what Paul meant, could anyone explain how we should imagine this scenario? Is it similar to the esoteric „Age of Aquarius”? And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?
JW:
"And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?".

Just accept it as a contradiction. Paul's writings are full of contradictions and he clearly lacks credibility. People try too hard to reconcile them as if Paul had a coherent, consistent theology. The biggest Pauline contradiction is his attitude towards The Law. At times he claims The Law is no longer in force for anyone and at times he claims it is no longer in force for Gentiles. At times he claims the Law was for everyone and at times he claims it was only for Jews. Why is it hard to believe that when Paul was with Gentiles he claimed the Law had ended for everyone and when he was with Jews he told them what they wanted to hear, that The Jewish Bible was the authority for Gentiles but The Jewish Bible did not require Gentiles to follow The Law.


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iskander
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by iskander »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:29 pm .
Galatians 3:23-25
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

There is a scholarly view that „faith“ in Gal 3:23-25 should be understand in a cosmic and eschatological sense. Benjamin Schliesser wrote (tranlation by Wayne Coppins)
Paul evidently understands pistis here [in Gal 3.23, 25] as a powerful eschatological event that marks a turn of the times and opposes the supremacy of the law that was previously in force in order to supplant this once and for all. Faith and Law come upon the stage as personified entities at a certain point in time of the salvation-historical drama. They possess a cosmic dimension that determines the reality as a whole and yet simultaneously a personal dimension that determines the entire person. Through the revelation of faith God has radically transformed the reality of the world and placed it under a new light. From this results the designations with which pistis has been understood [in scholarship]: “eschatological event of salvation” (F. Neugebauer), “divine event-reality”, “transubjective entity” (H. Binder), or “transindividual overall phenomenon” (P. Stuhlmacher).
If that's what Paul meant, could anyone explain how we should imagine this scenario? Is it similar to the esoteric „Age of Aquarius”? And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?
Faith has always been the means by which humans relate to God and here Paul is proposing a new way of relating to God .

Abram has faith in God and Paul has faith in the same statement made by the same God. In Genesis 15 God says to Abram: ‘Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.’ The same God said the same words to Paul in his vision.

In Genesis ’ 5 He [ God ]brought him [Abram] outside and said, ‘Look towards heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them.’ Then he said to him, ‘So shall your descendants be' . Both Paul and Jesus are descendants of Abram

Faith is the language used by God when communicating with humans and its grammar is free of contradictions ; it also admits different formal expressions of the same statement of faith.

In Genesis 6 And he [Abram] believed the LORD; and the LORD * reckoned it to him [Abram] as righteousness.
The descendants of Abram for Paul is the whole of humanity ( and extra-terrestrial ' humans' existing somewhere in the Universe), But some people persisted in restricting the divine favour to the ones under the Law. Why!!??

Paul would like to take his people with him into the promised land as a brother of Moses, as well as the people of Canaan and Palestinians and ...
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:19 pm Making some (possibly mistaken) assumptions about the integrity of the Pauline texts here, I would suggest that Paul, unlike more simplistic theologians who would wish to divide history merely into two great ages, used a more dispensational approach (if I may wrench that term away from modern evangelical fundamentalism for a moment). He contrasts the law with faith, but does not thereby divide the world into only two great ages. Abraham preceded the law, which came only under Moses:

Galatians 3.19: 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

I think the notion is that God deals with humanity in different, progressively revealed ways over time. He dealt with Noah differently than with Adam, with Abraham differently than with Noah, with Moses differently than with Abraham, perhaps with the Jewish kings and prophets differently than with Moses, and with believers after Christ differently still. He also seems to me to subject all of those past dispensations to "the end of the ages" under Jesus in a way that might be comparable to the Age of Aquarius, as you point out.

Paul praises Abraham's faith, and this faith is comparable to what is supposed to happen under Jesus, but Jesus adds more to the relationship.
Thanks. That's a really interesting thought. Very helpful.
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:28 am JW:
"And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?".

Just accept it as a contradiction. Paul's writings are full of contradictions and he clearly lacks credibility. People try too hard to reconcile them as if Paul had a coherent, consistent theology. The biggest Pauline contradiction is his attitude towards The Law. At times he claims The Law is no longer in force for anyone and at times he claims it is no longer in force for Gentiles. At times he claims the Law was for everyone and at times he claims it was only for Jews. Why is it hard to believe that when Paul was with Gentiles he claimed the Law had ended for everyone and when he was with Jews he told them what they wanted to hear, that The Jewish Bible was the authority for Gentiles but The Jewish Bible did not require Gentiles to follow The Law.
Okay, that might be indeed the case.
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:31 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:29 pm .
Galatians 3:23-25
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

There is a scholarly view that „faith“ in Gal 3:23-25 should be understand in a cosmic and eschatological sense. Benjamin Schliesser wrote (tranlation by Wayne Coppins)
Paul evidently understands pistis here [in Gal 3.23, 25] as a powerful eschatological event that marks a turn of the times and opposes the supremacy of the law that was previously in force in order to supplant this once and for all. Faith and Law come upon the stage as personified entities at a certain point in time of the salvation-historical drama. They possess a cosmic dimension that determines the reality as a whole and yet simultaneously a personal dimension that determines the entire person. Through the revelation of faith God has radically transformed the reality of the world and placed it under a new light. From this results the designations with which pistis has been understood [in scholarship]: “eschatological event of salvation” (F. Neugebauer), “divine event-reality”, “transubjective entity” (H. Binder), or “transindividual overall phenomenon” (P. Stuhlmacher).
If that's what Paul meant, could anyone explain how we should imagine this scenario? Is it similar to the esoteric „Age of Aquarius”? And how can Paul claim that there is a new age of faith if he praised the faith of Abraham?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2960&p=65866&hilit=moderator#p65866

Faith has always been the means by which humans relate to God and here Paul is proposing a new way of relating to God .

Abram has faith in God and Paul has faith in the same statement made by the same God. In Genesis 15 God says to Abram: ‘Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.’ The same God said the same words to Paul in his vision.

In Genesis ’ 5 He [ God ]brought him [Abram] outside and said, ‘Look towards heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them.’ Then he said to him, ‘So shall your descendants be' . Both Paul and Jesus are descendants of Abram

Faith is the language used by God when communicating with humans and its grammar is free of contradictions ; it also admits different formal expressions of the same statement of faith.

In Genesis 6 And he [Abram] believed the LORD; and the LORD * reckoned it to him [Abram] as righteousness.
The descendants of Abram for Paul is the whole of humanity ( and extra-terrestrial ' humans' existing somewhere in the Universe), But some people persisted in restricting the divine favour to the ones under the Law. Why!!??

Paul would like to take his people with him into the promised land as a brother of Moses, as well as the people of Canaan and Palestinians and ...
The physical translation of Galatians 3:23-28
iskander wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:18 pm “Galatians 3 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.”


The physical translation of Galatians 3:27-28 Moderator of the General Assembly.
Warm welcome tonight from the Glasgow Council of Christians & Jews The Church of Scotland has named the minister who will take up its head role as Moderator of the General Assembly.
See attachment
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2960&p=65866&hilit=moderator#p65866
yalla
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by yalla »

From Joe Above:
"Just accept it as a contradiction. Paul's writings are full of contradictions and he clearly lacks credibility. ..."


As in:
"1 Corinthians 9:19-23New International Version (NIV)


19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
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JoeWallack
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by JoeWallack »

yalla wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:38 pm From Joe Above:
"Just accept it as a contradiction. Paul's writings are full of contradictions and he clearly lacks credibility. ..."


As in:
"1 Corinthians 9:19-23New International Version (NIV)


19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
JW:
Exactly. Paul wrote to different audiences at different times to make different points. His thinking probably changed at times. Get a good critical commentary of Paul's underlying Greek and you will find that with the lack of grammar, complex thoughts, theology, proof-texting, multiple points running into each other, rhetoric and double negatives, it is often difficult to determine what Paul meant. Plus let's call a Sephardic a Sephardic. The average person then was not all that bright by modern standards (except for the author of GMark). Good to see you back Ol Yalla.


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iskander
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Re: But Now That Faith Has Come

Post by iskander »

yalla wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:38 pm From Joe Above:
"Just accept it as a contradiction. Paul's writings are full of contradictions and he clearly lacks credibility. ..."


As in:
"1 Corinthians 9:19-23New International Version (NIV)


19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

Paul is a democrat. I like his efforts to avoid conflict and his willingness to share the profits. Religions that did as he speaks flourished , but the elite religions withered away.

Paul's is the God of Abram interpreted in a modern way.

Where is the contradiction?
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