Can someone point me to serious discussions addressing the question of the historicity of Apollonius of Tyana - apart from the one on the Livius site?neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:11 amI have begun to read the pages at that site, thanks. The author begins by drawing attention to the similarities between Apollonius of Tyana and Jesus, and then selects elements from the bio to support this claim. Later, as I posted above, we see that he applies biblical scholarship's methods for determining the historicity of an ancient figure -- something I have never seen any other ancient historian do.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:47 am I agree that Philostratus's Life of Apollonius is historical fiction. However Philostratus certainly did not invent the figure of Apollonius and the pre-Philostratean traditions are probably based on a real figure. See a discussion at livius Apollonius . (The author believes a little more than I do. I doubt that Apollonius ever traveled to India or Egypt.)
Andrew Criddle
Of further interest is that his article on the historicity of Apollonius of Tyana appears to be entirely his own composition without any reference to other scholarly discussions. One wonders if such an article has at all appeared in the relevant literature.
But then we get into details:
To begin with, the author cites three incidents in Philostratus's life that he claims have "probable" independent origins and that "antedate" Philostratus's biography.
1. Apollonius understands the language of birds -- also found in Porphyry (234-c.303) -- which does not antedate Philostratus!
2. Apollonius knew by telepathy that Domitian the moment Domitian was assassinated -- also found in Cassius Dio -- which may or may not antedate Philostratus.
3. Apollonius warns Ephesians of a coming plague and expels a plague demon -- also found in Divine Institutions (5.3.14) by the Christian author Lactantius (second half third/first quarter fourth century) -- which does not antedate Philostratus!
Our Livius author concludes:
Well, no, "they" do not antedate the composition of P's Life of Apollonius.These three anecdotes have two things in common: they portray Apollonius as a visionary, knowing more than ordinary people, and they antedate the composition of the LoA.
And even if the different accounts are independent -- there are differences among them, but we can't tell if they originated from a common source, though that would seem very likely -- all the evidence tells us is that by the time these people wrote about Apollonius there were such stories being told about him, how he performed miracles etc.
I don't believe any of them, but the Livius author begs the question of historicity by assuming that Apollonius really existed and people made up impossible stories about him. -- And that's his evidence for the historicity of Apollonius, along with the erroneous claim that non-P stories preceded P.
I am not looking forward to reading the remainder if this is how the Livius historian begins to establish the historicity of Apollonius of Tyana -- clearly modeled after the way biblical scholars study the historical Jesus, and even using their fallacious methodology, and falling into the same question-begging traps.
But let's assume that we have very good reasons to believe in a historical Apollonius of Tyana -- the named historical sources in Philostratus. Claims of eyewitness reports. Arguably (at a stretch) independent sources for the same stories (even if they are impossible stories, but we'll overlook that detail and the question begging it brings with it) --- the debate about the historicity of Jesus would look very different if we had comparable evidence for Jesus.
Would be most grateful.