The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Post by outhouse »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Why not engage with the actual processes and methods deployed in those posts?
Why not follow plausibility? its exactly what is used during this time period to determine historicity.

In all other jewish myths, we see them creating their historical characters hundre4ds of years in the past, NOT within a living generation that could refute it, and NO ONE EVEER does refute his actual life.

Like it or not jesus, has historicity, and no mythicist has ever been able to explain the origins of Christianity withany amount of credibility.

STILL WAITING
outhouse
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Post by outhouse »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:11 pm

Outhouse ... Why do your comments always remind me of that Britain's Got Talent
Insults are only due to your weakness to refute the actual current credible hypothesis for the origins of Christianity.

It is also why Neil never has put forward a brief overview of the origins of Christianity, because he knows it contains enough holes to strain spaghetti, and is far from credible.
outhouse
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm

Jesus seems to have been a character developed over time - 'fleshed out' [ie. humanised] to give human meaning to the sacrifice of the deity.

100% agreed. The mythology of jesus factually developed and evolved over time. In the lifetime of events described.

Unlike other Jewish myths like Abaraham and Moses and the Exodus. This Hero was described and martyred when people writing could have been witness to the events.

John the Baptist has historicity, and it is perfectly logical that someone picked up his movement and carried this popular movement forward after his death.

What textual evidence would we have from these cultures if jesus was crucified, the answer is exactly what we possess.

What textual evidence would we have if jesus was created solely from literary mythical theology? first we would see a center of origin, and we would see a slower progression across the diaspora. We would see popularity expand slowly and we would see a single popular Christology evolve.

Jesus had multiple Christologies. Just as if people were describing what the event meant to them.

Moses and Abraham did not have multiple versions, people that found value in the myths kept the myths close to the original version despite having multiple cultures finding value in said myth.
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Kapyong
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Post by Kapyong »

Sorry Bernard Muller,

You just aren't engaging.

One again you are reduced to your usual bed-rock stance :

"My web-site explains why I am right".


Kapyong
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MrMacSon
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:42 pmHe wouldn't have been retrofitted into Christian documents. He is likely to have been, as the Catholic encylcopedia says, "..the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations..". http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am It's about the selection of Christian texts to be declared as sacred. Sure that took centuries. That does not mean the Catholic Encyclopedia says these texts were manufactured along these centuries. Actually, it thinks that by 100 CE, they all had been written (which I do not agree: as late as 130-150 for me).
It might be about sacred texts from the believers' point of view - then and now. But that's not what we are discussing.

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:42 pmJust because a Jewish character called Jesus was put at the center of [Christianity] does not make him 'historical' or [it] 'more necessary' for him to be historical'.
Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am I did not say that.
Of course you did not say that. You won't entertain that.

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am ... the historicity of Jesus (yes, no, how) has to be investigated because Paul made such a fuss about him being crucified as Christ.
That is just a begging-the-question fallacy: it's circularity.

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am If you want to describe the very origin of Christianity you have to decide about Jesus' historicity
No we don't. Christianity started whether Jesus was a real person or not.


Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am because, according to Paul, that's from Jesus' crucifixion that Christianity started.
err, No. Paul is not the catalyst for Christianity or the font of all knowledge of the start of Christianity. He is just a bit-player.

It is stories about Paul and stories about Jesus that are the foundation of Christianity: it is the coalescing of those stories that is at the heart of the development of Christianity. When that really happened is a key issue.


Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am I did not say Jesus had to be historical because Paul had him being the origin of Christian faith.
Yes you did. You said -
  • the historicity of Jesus (yes, no, how) has to be investigated because Paul made such a fuss about him being crucified as Christ.
.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm Jesus seems to have been a character developed over time - 'fleshed out' [ie. humanised] to give human meaning to the sacrifice of the deity.
outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am 100% agreed. The mythology of Jesus factually developed and evolved over time.
Agreed.

outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am In the lifetime of events described.

Unlike other Jewish myths like Abraham and Moses and the Exodus. This Hero was described and martyred when people writing could have been witness to the events.
I Disagree.

outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am John the Baptist has historicity ...
Maybe, maybe not.

outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am What textual evidence would we have if Jesus was created solely from literary mythical theology? first we would see a center of origin ..
Not necessarily. time would allow the mythology to be considered in different locations.

outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am ...we would see a slower progression across the diaspora. We would see popularity expand slowly
Which is what we see through the mid-late 2nd century through to the mid 4th century, at least.

And what we see though Asia and other regions outside Galilee & Judea.


outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am Jesus had multiple Christologies.
Yes.

outhouse wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am Just as if people were describing what the event meant to them.
No. They would not have been not describing 'the event'. They would have been describing others' accounts of others' versions of events.

.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Post by neilgodfrey »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:14 pm
Every detective, judge and jury wants to see corroboration for any and every claim.
And when they don't get what they want to see, does every detective, judge and jury drop the matter?

On the contrary, judges and juries in American civil cases decide cases on the basis of "preponderance of the evidence," a low-confidence criterion. Other legal systems derived from English law are similar, I am told.
Are you suggesting I am saying we "drop the matter?" No, I am saying we need to approach the question differently, relying upon an acknowledgement of the evidence we have instead of trying to see through that evidence to images and scenarios "behind" the text.

I don't follow your preponderance of evidence analogy. If a case cannot be decided on the basis of valid evidence then it cannot be decided on the basis of valid evidence. There is no second option to see how much evidence can be invalidly or tendentiously used to force a conviction.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

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Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:07 am Well, I can agree with that. As for corroboration for Jesus/Christ from non-Christian sources, there are Tacitus' Annals & Josephus' Antiquity 20 (which of course has been challenged my mythicists).
Please, Bernard, can we discuss the method. You know damn well that the passage in Annals is not only questioned by mythicists and that some mythicists do not even question it at all. So please stop trying to turn a discussion about valid methods into a defence of historicism or an attack on mythicism.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Post by neilgodfrey »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:00 pm to Neil,
About your post http://vridar.org/2012/04/22/putting-ja ... sian-test/:

For Book of Acts we have what is surely a strange silence about James being related to Jesus,
gLuke and Acts do not mention the name of the brother of Jesus (contrary to gMark & gMatthew), but they acknowledge Jesus had brothers.
The language used here in the last clause ("but they acknowledge Jesus had brothers") alerts us to the reason we are talking past each other and therefore exchange is accomplishing nothing or missing the point of the argument I have been making about historical method.

One person is making assessments based on the literary texts and no more, while the other is using the literary texts to make assumptions and arguments about a situation that exists outside the texts, as if the literary narrative is merely a window through which to look at historical events that were happening before the text was written. One is studying the text like a stained-glass window, examining the parts and seeking to understand their coherence, context etc with other stained-glass windows; the other is looking right through the text as if it is clear glass and imagining a world that exists independently of the text, as if the text's narrative is merely a sign pointing to past events that are the real point of interest.

That latter way of reading a text is naive. It is, in fact, circular. We cannot assume that a narrative is a window through which we look to see persons and events in the past. We need some form of independent corroboration in order to know if there are real events or persons behind the text's narrative.

James McGrath produced a simple diagram to show the different types of readings:
diagram.jpg
diagram.jpg (64.86 KiB) Viewed 4814 times
That's from The Burial of Jesus: History & Faith, p. 57

McGrath offers that model of historical inquiry with approval. Unfortunately, it is the core of the problem of biblical scholar methods of doing historical inquiry. I wish I could recall the author and book where I recently read a direct criticism of this method of doing history (I thought it was by Jacob Neusner but maybe not, and I can't find the source now) -- but it was a discussion of historical methods and explaining that unfortunately many students (and biblical scholars included) tended to dismiss the literary approach as something for "literary types" that had no relevance to historical inquiry. That error is in fact the method McGrath himself repeats.

But such an erroneous method is circular. It assumes that the text will offer information simply because it appears to be, or says it is offering historical information. That is the criterion used to justify the approach. That approach is a naive reading of the text. All the amount of criticism applied to a text that is read this way is criticism that rests upon an unsupportable assumption.

The historian always needs to establish what sort of text is being studied, first and foremost. That requires literary criticism as one fundamental process before we know what sorts of questions we can expect the text to be able to answer.

What McGrath labels the "historical approach" is indeed the historical approach used in biblical studies all too often. "Historians" see different "realities" behind the text according to the critical adjustments they make to the text they are looking through.
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Re: The best case for Jesus's historicity: Mark Craig

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Neil
Are you suggesting I am saying we "drop the matter?"
No. You mentioned some people and said what they wanted. You were silent about what happens when they don't get it. I explored that obvious follow-on question. I wasn't "suggesting" anything.
No, I am saying we need to approach the question differently, relying upon an acknowledgement of the evidence we have instead of trying to see through that evidence to images and scenarios "behind" the text.
Thank you for clarifying, but I haven't the faintest idea what that has to do with judges or jurors, the people whom you brought up.
I don't follow your preponderance of evidence analogy.
Judges and jurors apply standards of proof (as lawyers call it), one of which is preponderance of evidence, and thereby decide cases. That's neither an analogy nor is it mine. It's what people do, whose work you pointed out.
There is no second option to see how much evidence can be invalidly or tendentiously used to force a conviction.
There are a number of remedies if either party engages in misconduct (or whatever you meant by to force). The system is, however, adversarial, and so an advocate may well marshall evidence rhetorically. On the other hand, the opposing advocate also gets to speak, which mitigates the usefulness of baloney peddling. Not always so in academia, but that's a different problem.
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