Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
outhouse
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:45 pm But don't you wonder how a religion developed around a book saves people?
The books developed around the religious traditions.

The book was a tool to proselytize strangers who didn't give a rats azz about the mystery or hidden meaning.

The book was so unpopular many communities decided to redact it completely. Yet popular enough it was saved and canonized.

Very small piece of the pie really that became foundational in time.
Secret Alias
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Secret Alias »

But what is the content of this 'tradition' outside of the written gospel? It's the gospel that saves, nothing else. I almost think the idea of Paul 'preaching an unwritten gospel' is artificially designed to get around this difficulty. 'Christianity' begins as 'high Christianity' and ends as 'high Christianity.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Secret Alias
Wasn't that Mark's intent?
Well there's the $64 question. All we know of Mark is what we find in about 11,000 words, which aren't about him, and may not even be a singly authored work.
Maybe the endless chiasms are like curtains in a shrine and the truth is in the inner sanctum.
And maybe they're epiphenomenal to craftsmanship. If every moment's action recalls something that happened earlier and anticipates something yet to come, then you as author can count on your audience to organize their experience using straight lines, spontaneously.
What if there are just curtains and Mark cleverly avoided defining what that truth was at the center of the text because it is the act of penetrating the veils which is the path to salvation.
Or what if what was interesting and dramatically tractable about that "anthropomorphic divinity who came to earth during a certain year/period" was the variety of human reactions to his progress?

Indeed, why would Mark need or want to "pick winners" in an interesting situation like that? The last century's phrase was "Let a thousand flowers bloom." What's wrong with that? What would be wrong with that from the perspective of a non-big-C Catholic or Protestant? (Now there's something we can know about Mark, that he wasn't one of those, since there were no such critters back then.)

What's wrong with that from a storytelling craft perspective? 2001: A Space Odyssey, as filmed (= retold) by Kubrick "from" Clarke's short story* uses as its narrative spine the variety of human reactions to a tangible revelation of something from beyond. It's a durable structure. It's also just fine that the performance concludes without specifying the "truth" about that big black rectangular thing. The story is about the reaction to its intrusion into human experience.

Sell the sizzle, not the steak.
Is there an inner brilliance to Mark's composition that hasn't been understood?
Matthew and Luke seem to have understood the inner brilliance just fine :) . Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.
But don't you wonder how a religion developed around a book saves people?
I don't know that it did. All I know is that the book found a Christian audience, who seem to have liked it even better after it was tuned up some.

------------
* The film's screenplay was joint work by Kubrick and Clarke, developed in tandem with a novel-length expansion of the prose story, with the novel credited to Clarke (solo, but acknowledged by him as joint work).
Secret Alias
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Secret Alias »

All we know of Mark is what we find in about 11,000 words, which aren't about him, and may not even be a singly authored work.
But we have two sources that say his purpose was 'mystical.' Clement of Alexandria of course and the Marcionites according to the Philosophumena. My take on matters was - as noted - from this forum. The irony of specifically Jewish commentators (myself and Joe) who despite not 'believing' per se in the message of Mark, necessarily being 'drawn in' because of its literary structure.

Again who would begin a story of a man without at least providing some background on the man. The only other author I know was 'Moses' (at least according to the Samaritans and mystical sects of Judaism) who has a 'man' (an unnamed eesh) floating around the margins since creation and down to the theophany on Sinai). According to the Samaritans the unnamed 'eeshes' throughout the narratives of the Pentateuch are really one divine eesh, the 'man' (or Man) who eventually gives Moses his 'glow' on Sinai.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Secret Alias »

Could someone 'hearing' the gospel take note of the chiasms? I don't think so. As such I don't think the gospel was intended to be 'consumed' by 'hearers.' It was meant to be read. Why would Mark have established the chiasms? Most note Mark's chiastic structure wouldn't have been noticed by hearers:
... but more complex ones are less apparent to most readers or hearers because the chiastic structure is often dependent on similarities in content as well as in language and form. https://books.google.com/books?id=E6gg5 ... rk&f=false
So if he spent the time to establish things that could only be apprehended by one mode of 'information processing' surely that defines how the work was meant to be apprehended. Mark expected his intended audience to read his work which means he wrote for a very limited audience.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Ulan
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Ulan »

outhouse wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:58 am I don't think so. It was a book for the common illiterate man and Judaism explained in detail for people with no education in Judaism.
I think the text has both, a layer for the "simple" people, and something for more sophisticated readers to find. The simple readers can dabble on the surface, and who knows, we may even count the other synoptic evangelists among these.
outhouse wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:44 pm No in a pater familias you could have had a literate person reading to an audience.
You still use the term in a wrong way. "Pater familias" is very similar to the correspondent English words actually and means "father of the family". You mean the household of such a person.
Ulan
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Ulan »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:39 am
Is there an inner brilliance to Mark's composition that hasn't been understood?
Matthew and Luke seem to have understood the inner brilliance just fine :) . Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.
I'm actually not too sure about this. They seemed to have understood the text in a very literal way. Even most NT scholars today understand Mark's gospel as primitive and without much sophistication. The second layer seems to be there, but the gospel is really written in a way that it's hard to be 100% sure about what is there and what isn't.
Ulan
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by Ulan »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:11 am
All we know of Mark is what we find in about 11,000 words, which aren't about him, and may not even be a singly authored work.
But we have two sources that say his purpose was 'mystical.' Clement of Alexandria of course and the Marcionites according to the Philosophumena. My take on matters was - as noted - from this forum. The irony of specifically Jewish commentators (myself and Joe) who despite not 'believing' per se in the message of Mark, necessarily being 'drawn in' because of its literary structure.
I guess it's less ironic if you keep in mind that the Christian point of view is to mostly take the texts quite literally, whereas Jewish exegesis has always tried to read the texts in different ways.

I know your theory of what is hidden in the center of the text, but the center of the chiasms is a bit disappointing in this regard. That one seems to be about the nature of Christ (son of David, son of God). Or do I locate the center in the wrong place?
outhouse
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by outhouse »

Ulan wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:23 am
You still use the term in a wrong way.
Understood old habit

Thank you

I know its the leader or lord of he house, but you got my point :|
outhouse
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Re: Mark Wrote for Highly Educated People

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:14 pm But what is the content of this 'tradition' outside of the written gospel? It's the gospel that saves, nothing else. I almost think the idea of Paul 'preaching an unwritten gospel' is artificially designed to get around this difficulty. 'Christianity' begins as 'high Christianity' and ends as 'high Christianity.'
Tradition? Just like Judaism, it was wide and diverse and multi cultural.

I don't think it began as "high Christianity" I do not see a center of origin or even one Christology early on. marks version took time to win out over other versions.

Probably missing your point with Pauline text
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