Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Giuseppe »

So Rylands in Did Jesus ever live?, p. 111:
One reason for fixing the birth in the reign of Augustus probably was that August himself was regarded as a saviour-god by the Roman world. And his reign was the commencement of a new era, much better, it was hoped, than the immediately preceding one.
This possibility opens a new view of the comparison Jesus versus Caesar. Remember what Richard Miller said about the Gospels as subversive, but not seditious narratives, in relation to the Roman world. Remember even the insistence of the our dogmatic historicist outhouse on the anti-imperial meaning of words as "gospel" or "kyrios" or "son of god"...
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Secret Alias »

But at some point these 'revisionist' theories have to decide whether the gospel and Christianity were directed against the Jews or against the Romans - it can't be both if it understood to have been produced as a reaction or in relation to Jewish revolutionary activity.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:23 am But at some point these 'revisionist' theories have to decide whether the gospel and Christianity were directed against the Jews or against the Romans - it can't be both if it understood to have been produced as a reaction or in relation to Jewish revolutionary activity.
Why can't it be both (against "possessed-by-demons" pagans and against "blind" Jews)?

I think that the Christians were very similar to modern preachers of "Holy War" against all and all.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
davidbrainerd
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by davidbrainerd »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:23 am But at some point these 'revisionist' theories have to decide whether the gospel and Christianity were directed against the Jews or against the Romans - it can't be both if it understood to have been produced as a reaction or in relation to Jewish revolutionary activity.
It can be against both, just like your buddies taking down confederate statues also torched the face of a bust of the great emancipator.
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Secret Alias »

Ignoring the fact that America is one of the only civilized countries in which racist has long recent history of acceptability, where everything is ultimately about race, it is interesting to look again at the ancient situation. If the gospel was produced c 70 CE as I believe and most people believe it seems hard to understand how the text could have been against Jews and Romans. Who was it 'for'? I am not able to of see 'many sides' with respect to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Either you were 'for' it or 'against' it. 'For' the Roman reconquest or 'against' it.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Secret Alias »

against "possessed-by-demons" pagans and against "blind" Jews
Who then was it 'for'? Who was the author writing for? Are you supposing that the author invented an audience that wasn't there before the text was written? Unlikely.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:49 am
against "possessed-by-demons" pagans and against "blind" Jews
Who then was it 'for'? Who was the author writing for? Are you supposing that the author invented an audience that wasn't there before the text was written? Unlikely.
Note that Jesus does exorcisms only in Galilee while he heals only blind people in Judaea. The exorcisms are against Pagan idols while the blindness is only of the Jews, guilty for not having seen the Messiah. The author could be a Marcionite or whoever you like: this didn't prevent him from hating both - Jews and Gentiles - for their different rejection of the Christ.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Secret Alias »

I am not against the idea of the Jews being portrayed as blind. I am saying that it would be highly unusual for the author to have sidestepped taking sides given the recentness of Rome vs the Jews. I can't see how it isn't 'either/or.' It's either Pilate was exonerated by Mark BECAUSE he was pro-Roman or somehow you have to fit that into a pro-Jewish narrative.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: Why Pilate? Because of Augustus

Post by Giuseppe »

According to Rylands, the earliest Gospel had the crucifixion in Galilee by Herod. After the crucifixion was placed in Jerusalem and done by Pilate. According to this view, Pilate entered on the stage not in virtue of an anti-Judaism, but as apology pro-Jews and anti-gentile.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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