"Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

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Charles Wilson
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"Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:50 pm

Matthew 19: 23 - 24 (RSV):

[23] And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
[24] Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

It's always been that way hasn't it? Follow Stephan Huller's Posting on Clement and Origen. 100 years plus a few after the Destruction of the Temple and it is there for all to see.

Matthew 19: 24 (Lamsa and others):

24 Again I say to you, It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Kooks. Cranks. Fringe Translations.

There would have to be a reason to switch our understanding here, yes? I can present several:

1. What was the "Kingdom of God" or, as Matthew puts it in several places, "The Realm of Heaven" (Moffatt Trans.)? I believe that it was a Real, Physical Place, probably in Antonia. The Priests assembled there for their preparations in their Duties for the Mishmarot Priesthood. Only the Priests were allowed - and at least youths such as Peter, who was there in 4 BCE as a child. Others were not allowed:

Matthew 5: 20 (RSV):

[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Only the Priests.

I have attempted through the years to Chronicle the Alternate Story of Peter and the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. Peter is a child who goes to Jerusalem for the Passover as a Member of the Mishmarot Group Immer (1 Chronicles 24). He is expecting the Overthrow of Herod and the Romans in a Coup. He sees a Slaughter instead as 3000+ people are murdered around the Temple. As this Atrocity is taking place, he sees a Priest, a friend, probably also of Immer but perhaps from Jehoiarib. The Priest should be dead. There is no way out. The child Peter, however knows a small Passageway:

Luke 13: 23 - 24 (RSV):

[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

As Pie in the Sky, Somewhere Over the Rainbow, this is most uplifting. As a description of people attempting to evade the Death that surrounds them, it means something terribly different. It may also indicate a Literary Structure. If several are crowded around the small door as others around them being hacked to bits, it would be difficult to imagine that there would not be bodies in the way of the safety that the Passage would provide. On the other hand, it may be perfectly descriptive and a Heroic reflection of all the Peter did. Alas, this part of the Story has been deeply hidden.

Matthew 18: 1 - 4 (RSV):

[1] At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
[2] And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Here is another example of alternate Translations. In several translations, the text reads, "...unless you CHANGE like children...". The Understanding and Intentionality, without proper Context, always travels to the Metaphysical. If you can see the Story, however, it is OBVIOUS that the reading should be "...unless you turn like children". The door and the passageway are that narrow.

Which brings us to the consideration of Matthew 19. I believer that the "Camel through the eye of a needle" cannot be correct. The Intentionality here is that "...a rich man is a fat man" and that makes all the difference. This Passage is from the Story of the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. It is NOT a commentary on a rich man not being able to get into the Heavenly Park in the Sky, where the Kingdom of Heaven is. It is about the Death. Real Death around the Temple in Jerusalem, in 4 BCE. No Metaphysics. The description is of a real piece of Real Estate:

Mark 9: 47 (RSV):

[47] And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell

How Ironic. The Meeting Place of the Priests, a Place only those without Blemish may gather. That day, there were survivors and the few who survived were bloodied and maimed. There were some who were rich, fattened by years of easy living. They could not could not make into the Realm of Heaven. The FIrst, the Well to Do, were last. There were children, the least of all in the Scheme of Things, who were First. It would be easier for a rope to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Realm of Heaven.

One child, Peter, saved a Priest. They would return 12 years later. Only, the Priest would be captured and Crucified. On the cross, the Priest yells, "My God, my God, for this was I spared?"

Many who have wrestled with this Translation are deeply puzzled though they accept these words. Kooks? Cranks? No. Without the Context, it makes little sense. It makes Perfect Sense.

CW

John2
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by John2 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:47 pm

I would have been in the camp that says "rope" (if I had to pick one) until I noticed this:
Jesus’ words have a parallel in the Babylonian Talmud (Berakoth 55b; Baba Mezi’a 38b): here, the difficulty of something is likened to an elephant being drawn through the eye of a needle. Jesus is quoting a Jewish proverb, meaning that something can never be done.

https://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2010/ ... edles-eye/
Ber. 55b:
“And that you may know the thoughts of your heart” (Daniel 2:30). How will you know the thoughts of your heart? By their being revealed to you in a dream. Rava said: Know that this is the case, for one is neither shown a golden palm tree nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle in a dream.

https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.56a.1? ... l&lang2=en
BM 38b:
Rav Sheshet said mockingly to him, employing a similar style: Perhaps you are from Pumbedita, where people pass an elephant through the eye of a needle, i.e., they engage in specious reasoning.

https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.38b ... l&lang2=en
Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see.

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Secret Alias
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:04 pm

It should also be noted that 'camel' (gimmel) and 'eye of a needle' (qof) are both letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Qof has a value of a hundred and symbolized the perfect number of the heavenly abode in Christian gnosis:
Wherefore also they, by means of their "knowledge," avoid the place of ninety-nine, that is, the defection--a type of the left hand,--but endeavour to secure one more, which, when added to the ninety and nine, has the effect of changing their reckoning to the right hand.
A hundred is perfection and the letter qof also represented the high priest and was a short form for 'holy.'
Last edited by Secret Alias on Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Secret Alias
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:00 am

In case anyone is interested in really obscure linguistic matters here is an example of 'qa/q' being used as an aspectual marker:

והא אנא קא אמינא כמה זמני רחב רחב ולא איכפת לי

" did I not, in fact, say several times: "Rahab! Rahab!," and I did not care?"
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Charles Wilson
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:33 am

To paraphrase Kant, "I grant all of the arguments". "If an animal could not travel through the eye of a needle, how much more then would a rope be unable to pass through the eye of a needle as well, even to save one's own life?"

John2: Your article states the following:

"Jesus’ words have a parallel in the Babylonian Talmud (Berakoth 55b; Baba Mezi’a 38b): here, the difficulty of something is likened to an elephant being drawn through the eye of a needle. Jesus is quoting a Jewish proverb, meaning that something can never be done."

Whether "Jesus" is quoting a proverb or not, someone PROBABLY is and I agree that it is exquisitely deep. However, this Analysis is done after the fact by someone who is not attempting to escape being murdered by soldiers unleashed by Herod Archelaus. The prospect of Death does focus the mind but probably not in a literary direction, if the sword is swinging at you in anger at that moment. This is the part that is missing. I am presenting evidence that there was a Mass Murder. For those who are tired of me stating all of this, I merely ask that you attempt to find the Contradiction in the thesis. Thesis: Many of the NT Stories were rewrites of the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. The "external" view is given in Josephus, the "internal" view is given in the Gospels. If true, then the Gospels were a rewrite of a Story that was dismembered and rewritten by the Romans for the Glory of Rome and the Flavians.

This goes to the Critique of Marcion/Luke. One may be a redaction of the other but if they are both arguing for a "Jesus", they are both in on the Fraud. PO9 may think I'm on drugs - good drugs! - but that is not a refutation of the Thesis.

Stephan is onto something and I appreciate his insight. Which is more possible? That Romans in the Court would know the value of "Qof" and write THAT as the focus of the Passage (Realm of Heaven in Antonia => Perfection) or the Romans took over a found Story or perhaps even Contract Work of surviving Priests (Zakkai and others of his school or members of Weitzman's posited Scribal Community) not knowing that Clues were left in the Contracted Documents?

In short, I'm offering CONTEXT for a Passage that, indeed may be "camel"/"elephant" or other impossibility to go through the eye of a needle, with the implication that a (rich) fat man could not have saved his life, though safety was only a few grasping pulls and crawl steps away.

It makes much more sense for use of the word "rope". The Context lets you know.

CW

Charles Wilson
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Charles Wilson » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:30 pm

"I guess we cleared up THAT problem..."

Still a coupla' details to tend to but thanx to John2 and Secret Alias for contributions,

outhouse
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by outhouse » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:10 am

Charles Wilson wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:50 pm


1. What was the "Kingdom of God" or, as Matthew puts it in several places, "The Realm of Heaven" (Moffatt Trans.)? I believe that it was a Real, Physical Place, probably in Antonia.

CW
To much certainty there.

It has never been settled of the context of said kingdom. It is so much more than just the Realm of heaven.

Allegorically, context is all over the board.

Charles Wilson
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:59 am

outhouse wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:10 am
Charles Wilson wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:50 pm
1. What was the "Kingdom of God" or, as Matthew puts it in several places, "The Realm of Heaven" (Moffatt Trans.)? I believe that it was a Real, Physical Place, probably in Antonia.

CW
To much certainty there.
It has never been settled of the context of said kingdom. It is so much more than just the Realm of heaven.
Allegorically, context is all over the board.
Thank you, outhouse.

Actually, there appears to be not enough certainty. Apologetix has gummed up the works. By introducing an "Or" into the History, the task of finding possible Historical Markers is infinitely more difficult:

"One possible historical thread might be... OR Jesus said...".

That trumps everything:

John 19: 29 - 30 (RSV):

[29] A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth.
[30] When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Vitellius":

"Beginning in this way, he regulated the greater part of his rule wholly according to the advice and whims of the commonest of actors and chariot-drivers, and in particular of his freedman Asiaticus. This fellow had immoral relations with Vitellius in his youth, but later grew weary of him and ran away. When Vitellius came upon him selling posca 18 at Puteoli, he put him in irons, but at once freed him again and made him his favourite..."

Here we have the Scene at the Cross, with heavy homosexual overtones, of the "vinegar on a sponge on a hyssop stick, brought to the mouth of a person being crucified". Compare it with the passage in 12 Caesars. What do you get? A big "So, What?!??" Until you see that little footnote, "18". What is this?

"A drink made of sour wine or vinegar mixed with water."

Posca was "The Drink of the Legions", a mixture of vinegar and water with some other flavorings. It would then imply that the Crucifixion Scene was a Set Piece to be analyzed. Except it can't. Why?

Because JESUS, that's why. It's not allowed.

WAS The Realm of Heaven a Real, Physical Place? Only if you look without tying the Metaphysical Baggage to the idea:

Matthew 23: 13 (RSV):

[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Knock out the Metaphysics for a moment and read this as something that might have happened. The Scribes and Pharisees are preventing MEN - not resurrected Spirits - from entering a PLACE named "The Kingdom of Heaven". The S and Ps CANNOT enter it themselves (They are not RIGHTEOUS enough). Does this suggest that something happened, some event, and that the S and Ps ACTED to prevent certain others more Righteous than they from entering the Kingdom of heaven, a Place where these others had a RIGHT to enter?

If so, what was that Event? Who were those who were prevented from entering? What were they prevented from entering?
Someone was saved, we know that. There were a few who entered through the Narrow Door. The Door was so narrow that you had to turn and "humble yourself as a child..." in order to get throught the passageway into the "Realm of Heaven"/"Kingdom of Heaven".

This possibility, however, cannot even be considered because of...well, you know.

Too much certainty? Rather, not enough.

CW

PS: Next Up: "Context"

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DCHindley
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by DCHindley » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:55 pm

In my experience, having smoked Camels and Ropes, that Ropes are much to be preferred. The smoke from either one, tho', can be blown through the eye of that needle like anything. DCH

Charles Wilson
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Re: "Rope" or "Camel" through the Eye of a Needle?"

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:16 pm

'N it's so much harder to glue a filter tip to a rope.

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