I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

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Giuseppe
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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:18 am

Among the docetiss there was not only Marcion. The implication is there:
For if Jesus is one, and Christ is another, then the Son will be different from the Father
For Tertullian, adoptionism is better than docetism. And so also for the same adoptionists (if Tertullian used that argument): a man Jesus distinct from the divine Christ is better than a Jesus Christ pure phantasm without body.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:36 am

Why does this have any thing to do with docetism? My son is different from me. Neither of us can walk through walls.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:49 am

If the Son is different from the Father (who for Tertullian is the creator god) then he is to be a son of another God. Something that surely his opponent adoptionists don't like to infer.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:11 am

What are you talking about? My son is my son. I made him. If you have a god named the Son and the Father they are related. These aren't difficult concepts. Can't be an alien Son if the son is named 'the Son' and the father 'the Father' in a closed system like the Judeo-Christian tradition. THE Son and THE Father are concepts that exist within a very limited number of gods.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:14 am

I don't think you understand these concepts. For instance 'docetism' = his physical existence was '(only) in appearance' like this:

Image

It arises as a result of the heretical interpretation of Jesus walking through a crowd on a precipice in the gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

andrewcriddle
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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by andrewcriddle » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:04 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:25 am
I think χρήματα πολλὰ can be taken to mean 'many things' https://books.google.com/books?id=_N4sD ... gs&f=false and the lesson from Clement is to give up 'many things' for one 'thing.' The difficulty for me is trying to find the word in English to take chrestos to relate to 'thing-ness.' I think if χρήματα means 'things' then chrestos (hidden in the logic of Mark) means 'the Thing.' The 'good thing'? But does that work?
This may be relevant
And he [the rich young man] was capable of busying himself about many things; but the one thing, the work of life, he was powerless, and disinclined, and unable to accomplish. Such also was what the Lord said to Martha, who was occupied with many things, and distracted and troubled with serving; while she blamed her sister, because, leaving serving, she set herself at His feet, devoting her time to learning: You are troubled about many things, but Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her. So also He bade him leave his busy life, and cleave to One and adhere to the grace of Him who offered everlasting life.
In the background but not quoted is
“Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her
Andrew Criddle

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Secret Alias
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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:43 am

Thank you Andrew this is most useful (pardon the pun). It is interesting that Clement seems to be aware of the κτήματα reading (from Matthew presumably) but attempts to mediate the two readings. It goes beyond this in fact. Matthew's use of 'love your neighbor' is embraced too:
Riches (χρήματα), then, which benefit also our neighbours, are not to be thrown away. For they are possessions (κτήματα), inasmuch as they are possessed (κτητὰ), and goods, inasmuch as they are useful (καὶ χρήματα χρήσιμα) and provided by God for the use of men [QDS 14]
This seems to be an ancient variety or form of textual criticism - albeit one which is highly literate and almost poetic. It reminds me of a lot of French scholarship to be honest. It seems to say that kremata represents a more generic understanding of what is more specific and limited in Matthew. But Mark is truer and more mystical insofar as the original and underlying krestos/kremata play on words is maintained from Mark. It's almost as if Clement's flowery writing style is being dictated by similar and underlying 'meanings' and 'connections' in Mark.

And again in what follows:
I would then say this. Since some things are within and some without the soul, and if the soul make a good use (χρῆται καλῶς) of them, they! also are reputed good, but if a bad, bad; -- whether does He who commands us to alienate our possessions repudiate those things, after the removal of which the passions still remain, or those rather, on the removal of which wealth even becomes beneficial (καὶ τὰ κτήματα χρήσιμα γίνεται)?
or at the beginning:
and thus by the grace of the Saviour healing their souls, enlightening them and leading them to the attainment of the truth (τῆς ἀληθείας κτῆσιν) [QDS 1]
or even clearer:
Wherefore the greatest and chiefest point of the instructions which relate to life must be implanted in the soul from the beginning, -- to know the eternal God, the giver of what is eternal, and by knowledge and comprehension to possess (κτήσασθαι) God, who is first, and highest, and one, and good [ibid 7 interestingly the actual Greek is καὶ ἀγαθὸν θεόν]
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:54 pm

And interestingly the Martha passage uses a word derived from χράομαι:
“Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things but (only) one thing is needed (χρεία). Mary has chosen what is the good (ἀγαθὴν) portion, and it will not be taken away from her.” [Luke 10:41, 42]
The passage Andrew cited from QDS:

For he did not truly wish life (οὐ γὰρ ἀληθῶς ζωὴν ἤθελεν), as he averred, but aimed at the mere reputation of the good choice (ἀλλὰ δόξαν προαιρέσεως ἀγαθῆς μόνην περι εβάλλετο). And he was capable of busying himself about many things; but the one thing, the work of life, he was powerless, and disinclined, and unable to accomplish. Such also was what the Lord said to Martha, who was occupied with many things, and distracted and troubled with serving (ὁ σωτὴρ ἀσχολουμένην περὶ πολλὰ καὶ περιελκομένην καὶ ταρασσομένην διακονικῶς); while she blamed her sister, because, leaving serving, she set herself at His feet, devoting her time to learning: "Thou art troubled about many things, but Mary hath chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her (σὺ περὶ πολλὰ ταράσσῃ· Μαρία δὲ τὴν ἀγαθὴν μερίδα ἐξελέξατο, καὶ οὐκ ἀφαιρεθήσεται αὐτῆς)." So also He bade him leave his busy life, and cleave to One and adhere to the grace of Him who offered everlasting life.

But the citation of the Mary and Martha story is odd. QDS has:
σὺ περὶ πολλὰ ταράσσῃ· Μαρία δὲ τὴν ἀγαθὴν μερίδα ἐξελέξατο, καὶ οὐκ ἀφαιρεθήσεται αὐτῆς
the gospel of Luke:
Μάρθα Μάρθα, μεριμνᾷς καὶ θορυβάζῃ περὶ πολλά, ὀλίγων δέ ἐστιν χρεία ἢ ἑνός· Μαριὰμ γὰρ τὴν ἀγαθὴν μερίδα ἐξελέξατο, ἥτις οὐκ ἀφαιρεθήσεται αὐτῆς.
It's as if the reference to χρεία has been cut out of the manuscript!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by andrewcriddle » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:20 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:54 pm


But the citation of the Mary and Martha story is odd. QDS has:
σὺ περὶ πολλὰ ταράσσῃ· Μαρία δὲ τὴν ἀγαθὴν μερίδα ἐξελέξατο, καὶ οὐκ ἀφαιρεθήσεται αὐτῆς
the gospel of Luke:
Μάρθα Μάρθα, μεριμνᾷς καὶ θορυβάζῃ περὶ πολλά, ὀλίγων δέ ἐστιν χρεία ἢ ἑνός· Μαριὰμ γὰρ τὴν ἀγαθὴν μερίδα ἐξελέξατο, ἥτις οὐκ ἀφαιρεθήσεται αὐτῆς.
It's as if the reference to χρεία has been cut out of the manuscript!
There is a textual issue. Some manuscripts of Luke have ὀλίγων δέ ἐστιν χρεία ἢ ἑνός others have ἑνός δέ ἐστιν χρεία

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Secret Alias
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Re: I Think Clement's Argument in QDS is Starting to Make Sense to Me

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:05 pm

But do any completely excise the passage? And in a text like QDS where Clement NEEDS the material to be there for his argument (or at least my reading of his argument)? Odd to have that excised at that critical moment.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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