Evidence that Marcion existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 2370
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:03 am

Acts 16:7
7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.
Sinope is in Pontus immediately after Bithynia.
In this case the Criterion of Embarrassment say us why the Spirit of Jesus was so prohibitive.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:38 am

Excellent find. That always struck me as odd in Acts. Glad to finally know why it was made up.

John2
Posts: 1276
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by John2 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:49 am

I've never noticed this before and have no opinion about it, but it looks like there is at least one manuscript that says "the spirit" and not "the spirit of Jesus."

https://books.google.com/books?id=m-q8x ... us&f=false
Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:27 am

John2 wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:49 am
I've never noticed this before and have no opinion about it, but it looks like there is at least one manuscript that says "the spirit" and not "the spirit of Jesus."

https://books.google.com/books?id=m-q8x ... us&f=false
Yes, but I don't think for the point here it matters much if the spirit is Jesus' spirit or the holy spirit.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:19 pm

.
I'm moved with compassion because you look like sheep without a shepherd :mrgreen: ;)

imho Luke simply tried to communicate that the spirit casts Paul andTimothy out of Asia and drives them into Europe

6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them. 8 So, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Image

Ulan
Posts: 980
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Ulan » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:32 pm

I think we already had a longer thread about this here some time ago. The point that also the province of Asia is mentioned, another known Marcionite stronghold, may indicate an attempt to dissociate the apostle Paul from Marcionites, who seemed to have claimed that apostle for themselves.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 2658
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:13 pm

to Kunigunde Kreuzerin,
imho Luke simply tried to communicate that the spirit casts Paul and Timothy out of Asia and drives them into Europe
True, KK. Furthermore Bithynia is not Pontus. Another attempt for post-dating Acts.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 4536
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by MrMacSon » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:13 pm

Another attempt for post-dating Acts.
Hi Bernard, what do you mean by that? An attempt to date Acts later? Later than the synoptics?

neilgodfrey
Posts: 2907
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:31 pm

"Proof that Marcion existed" is a bit strong (and a bit circular, too, actually -- which the arguments based on "the criterion of embarrassment" usually are), but there is a plausible connection between the Acts 16 passage and the Marcionite phenomenon. Joseph Tyson in Marcion and Luke-Acts writes:
A plausible suggestion is that in the second century Bithynia, which was generally connected with Pontus, was known as the place of Marcion’s origin and that Luke wants to disassociate Paul from Marcion. He does so by affirming that in the very area where Marcion was born and began his preaching, there had been no Pauline mission, thus no association with earlier Christianity. The author of Acts would be signaling the reader that the claims of the Marcionites to be followers of Paul are mere fabrications, unsupported by the historical “facts” and, what is more important, contrary to the “Spirit ofJesus.” (p.77)
The suggestion is only supported, however, by the larger context (and details) of Tyson's argument that the canonical form Luke-Acts is an anti-Marcionite redaction.

(What I find of particular interest is that Paul turns instead to go to Troas (the region of Troy) where he receives a vision that leads him to a new continent and a place explicitly said to be a "Roman colony". This is one of numerous shadowy echoes of the myth of Aeneas and hints that the author had that myth in mind when he narrated the preparation for the church's base being moved from Jerusalem to Rome.)

Bernard Muller
Posts: 2658
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi Bernard, what do you mean by that? An attempt to date Acts later? Later than the synoptics?
Definitely later than gLuke, therefore later than gMark. Likely later than gMatthew but most probably earlier than the final version of gJohn. Around 90-95 CE.
Written by the same author of gLuke (a Roman woman from Philippi, Macedonia), a few years after her gospel.
http://historical-jesus.info/63.html
http://historical-jesus.info/64.html
http://historical-jesus.info/76.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], MrMacSon, rakovsky, Secret Alias, Steven Avery and 37 guests