Evidence that Marcion existed

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am

It is the same thing about to ask why Jesus in Matthew prohibited a preaching among the Samaritans. Evidently there were Christians in Samaria Matthew didn't like (while in John Jesus doesn't deny he is Samaritan).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am

In Acts, Paul is with all of his enemies always in melee.

Giuseppe
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:46 am

Another question rises: In Bythinia the Christians were persecuted by Pliny the Younger. Could Paul be linked with them?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:15 am
If our texts attributed to Justin Martyr were composed around the 140s-150s as is often said, then Justin's ignorance of Acts must raise questions.
However, earlier, the Epistula Apostolorum 30-31 is aware of Acts.
"[The creed's] close parallels with the creed found in the writings of Justin (.... lived in the middle of the second century) suggest that the Epistula Apostolorum may be indicative of the state of affairs at the time of Justin. ....

"The Epistula Apostolorum was composed sometime after the gospels of the New Testament and before the Coptic translation was made in the fourth or fifth century. The freedom in its use of traditions, the adaptation of the gospels into regulation for church order, the way in which the creed's position is consolidated and used to combat its gnostic emerging "catholic" church -- all of this suggests that this document was composed in the mid- to late second century." Cameron, The Other Gospels, pp. 132-33
Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:15 am
But if the idea of this idealistic spread of Christianity was prevalent in the 2nd century and beyond, why does Acts say the opposite if written in the same time period (the disciples stay in Palestine, and the churches outside Israel are created by non-Jesus disciples, including the very important one in Antioch, and then by Paul & Barnabas, and then Paul only)?

So that one reason why Acts was written earlier, and also why Acts was not mentioned up to Irenaeus' times: because it went against the idealistic scenario for the early world-wide spread of Christianity: by Jesus' disciples themselves.

Cordially, Bernard

"I advise my philosophy students to develop hypersensitivity for rhetorical questions in philosophy. They paper over whatever cracks there are in the arguments." (Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p. 178)

The arguments that bypass the rebuttal by rhetorical questions are well set out in a range of works on Acts. But it helps if one is open to engaging with new ideas with an intent to genuinely understand them as opposed to reading them to demonstrate how stupid they are if they contradict your own firmly held (and thoroughly "proof-texted") beliefs.

neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:03 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:30 am
Ulan wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:32 pm
I think we already had a longer thread about this here some time ago. The point that also the province of Asia is mentioned, another known Marcionite stronghold, may indicate an attempt to dissociate the apostle Paul from Marcionites, who seemed to have claimed that apostle for themselves.
Is there any ancient source that

- what Luke called Asia was a stronghold of Marcion
- and also Bithynia
From R. Joseph Hoffmann's Marcion: On the Restitution of Christianity
According to the most ancient authorities,/2/ Marcion was a native of Pontus in Asia Minor, a region which Tertullian describes as barbarous and inhospitable:

All is torpid here, everything stark. Savagery is there the only thing warm -- such savagery as has provided the theater with tales of Tauric sacrifices, Colchian love affairs, and Caucasian cruficixions. Even so, the most barbarous and melancholy thing about Pontus is that Marcion was born there, more uncouth than a Scythian, more unsettled than a Wagon-dweller, more uncivilized than a Massagete, with more effrontery than an Amazon, darker than fog, colder than winter, more brittle than ice, more treacherous than the Danube, and more precipitous than Caucasus ./3/

For Tertullian, the barbarism of Marcion's unholy birthplace is matched only by the ravings of 'the Pontic mouse who has nibbled away the Gospels', 'abolished marriage', and 'torn God almight to bits with [his] blasphemies'.
Hoffmann's footnote of the "ancient authorities".....
/2/ Justin, I Apo1. 26; Tert., AM 1. 1; Ps.-Tert., Omn. haer. 6 ('Ponticus genere'); Epiphanius, Panar. 42 .I • Epiphanius adds the information that Marcion lived at Sinope

Bernard Muller
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:27 pm

to Neil,
all of this suggests that this document was composed in the mid- to late second century."
If the author was aware of the gospels, how could he have written that:
16-17 Coptic version "... The wings of the clouds shall bear me in brightness, and the sign of the cross shall go before me, and I shall come upon earth to judge the quick and the dead.
We said unto him: Lord, after how many years shall this come to pass ? He said unto us: When the hundredth part and the twentieth part is fulfilled, between the Pentecost and the feast of unleavened bread, then shall the coming of my Father be"

This could not have been written after 150-156. That would have been stupid to claim that after the deadline went by and the big event did not happen.
And when the Ethiopic version was written, the 120 years after Pentecost got increased to 150 years.
BTW, is Cameron applying your kind of historical method? If he does not, why are you quoting him?
"I advise my philosophy students to develop hypersensitivity for rhetorical questions in philosophy. They paper over whatever cracks there are in the arguments." (Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p. 178)

The arguments that bypass the rebuttal by rhetorical questions are well set out in a range of works on Acts. But it helps if one is open to engaging with new ideas with an intent to genuinely understand them as opposed to reading them to demonstrate how stupid they are if they contradict your own firmly held (and thoroughly "proof-texted") beliefs.
It does not look you have anything specific to say about my argument, just accusing me of proof-texting because I go against your conclusion for a very late Acts.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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MrMacSon
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:31 pm

neilgodfrey wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm

"[The creed's] close parallels with the creed found in the writings of Justin (.... lived in the middle of the second century) suggest that the Epistula Apostolorum may be indicative of the state of affairs at the time of Justin ...

"The Epistula Apostolorum was composed sometime after the gospels of the New Testament and before the Coptic translation was made in the fourth or fifth century. The freedom in its use of traditions, the adaptation of the gospels into regulation for church order, the way in which the creed's position is consolidated and used to combat its gnostic emerging "catholic" church -- all of this suggests that this document1 was composed in the mid- to late second century." Cameron, The Other Gospels, pp. 132-33
1 Which document is suggested to have been composed in the mid-late 2nd century?

neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:45 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:31 pm
neilgodfrey wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm

"[The creed's] close parallels with the creed found in the writings of Justin (.... lived in the middle of the second century) suggest that the Epistula Apostolorum may be indicative of the state of affairs at the time of Justin ...

"The Epistula Apostolorum was composed sometime after the gospels of the New Testament and before the Coptic translation was made in the fourth or fifth century. The freedom in its use of traditions, the adaptation of the gospels into regulation for church order, the way in which the creed's position is consolidated and used to combat its gnostic emerging "catholic" church -- all of this suggests that this document1 was composed in the mid- to late second century." Cameron, The Other Gospels, pp. 132-33
1 Which document is suggested to have been composed in the mid-late 2nd century?
The Epistula Apostolorum

neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:48 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:27 pm
to Neil,
all of this suggests that this document was composed in the mid- to late second century."
If the author was aware of the gospels, how could he have written that:
16-17 Coptic version "... The wings of the clouds shall bear me in brightness, and the sign of the cross shall go before me, and I shall come upon earth to judge the quick and the dead.
We said unto him: Lord, after how many years shall this come to pass ? He said unto us: When the hundredth part and the twentieth part is fulfilled, between the Pentecost and the feast of unleavened bread, then shall the coming of my Father be"

This could not have been written after 150-156. That would have been stupid to claim that after the deadline went by and the big event did not happen.
And when the Ethiopic version was written, the 120 years after Pentecost got increased to 150 years.
BTW, is Cameron applying your kind of historical method? If he does not, why are you quoting him?
"I advise my philosophy students to develop hypersensitivity for rhetorical questions in philosophy. They paper over whatever cracks there are in the arguments." (Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p. 178)

The arguments that bypass the rebuttal by rhetorical questions are well set out in a range of works on Acts. But it helps if one is open to engaging with new ideas with an intent to genuinely understand them as opposed to reading them to demonstrate how stupid they are if they contradict your own firmly held (and thoroughly "proof-texted") beliefs.
It does not look you have anything specific to say about my argument, just accusing me of proof-texting because I go against your conclusion for a very late Acts.

Cordially, Bernard
You answer with yet more rhetorical questions????
"I advise my philosophy students to develop hypersensitivity for rhetorical questions in philosophy. They paper over whatever cracks there are in the arguments." (Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p. 178)
Correct, Bernard, it does indeed look like I have no rebuttal to your arguments. When you give us more than rhetorical questions and attempt a serious argument I may indeed bother to respond.

I generally choose not to bother wasting time with people who rely upon dogmatic assumptions buttressed with nothing more than rhetorical questions.

neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence that Marcion existed

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:52 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:27 pm
to Neil,
It does not look you have anything specific to say about my argument, just accusing me of proof-texting because I go against your conclusion for a very late Acts.

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard, I have tried over and over to explain that I disagree with your methods of argument and assumptions. I have tried to point out that it is fallacious to look first at an arguments conclusions and from that point decide whether the argument is sound or not. So what do you do? Take the "dishonest"(?) way out and accuse me of rejecting your point because of your conclusions!

I have absolutely no problem with arriving at different conclusions -- as long as they are based on engagement with the arguments and rely upon sound methods and assumptions.

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