How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

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Stuart
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Stuart » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:47 pm

Clement is likely from the first quarter of the 3rd century (like Tertullian, and the first layers of Irenaeus). Even the Radical views for composition has all the Gospels present prior to this in mostly Canonical form already. So that would not be unexpected.

Radical dating places the compositions of the Gospels from 140-180 AD, Marcion's the first, prototypes possible in the 130s. Paul is similarly to be dated in that range, both Marcionite and later Catholic editions, as well as 1 John. The Pastorals and Hebrews closer to 200 AD, with James, Jude and 2 Peter and 2 & 3 John all around or into the 3rd century. None of this is inconsistent with the church fathers comments, if they are being from the early 3rd century, rather than forced into the late 2nd. The same material they attest would have been known at that time. Radical dating simply says something happened in the Antoninus Pius reign for the NT literature to explode, and something happened in the reign of Severus for the Patristic writings to develop.

What is "actual evidence"? This seems a rather vague blanket statement meant to equate all reasoned deductions into the same category as Erik Von Daniken, as wild speculations. A argument to ignore all literary criticism ever done. This is a wild step to go from the standards are flawed, to claim no standards should apply.

BTW, you do realize snowball theory is very much supported by the words of Celsus, who said Christian scribes had pen in hand ready to adjust the text to counter whatever argument was made against them.

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Secret Alias
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:45 pm

'The evidence' = whatever is actually available, no matter how paltry.

Part 1 the acknowledged allusions to the gospels in QDS:
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 16 § 3 (p.170, l.12) BP1, 17 § 5 (p.170, l.33) BP1, 19 § 2 (p.172, l.2) BP1
Matthew 5, 6 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.34) BP1
Matthew 5, 8 QDS 19 § 3 (p.172, l.5) BP1
Matthew 5, 13, 14 QDS 36 § 1 (p.183, l.23) BP1
Matthew 5, 16 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.12) BP1
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.6) BP1, 13 § 7 (p.168, l.18) BP1
Matthew 7, 14 QDS 26 § 8 (p.177, l.24) BP1
Matthew 7, 21 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.19) BP1
Matthew 10, 41, 42 QDS 31 § 4 (p.180, l.16) BP1
Matthew 11, 12 QDS 21 § 3 (p.173, l.22) BP1
Matthew 13, 38 QDS 5 § 4 (p.163, l.25) BP1, 36 § 2 (p.183, l.24) BP1
Matthew 13, 44 QDS 17 § 3 (p.170, l.27) BP1
Matthew 16, 18 QDS 21 § 4 (p.173, l.27) BP1
Matthew 16, 25 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.27) BP1
Matthew 18, 10 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.9) BP1
Matthew 19, 17 QDS 3 § 1 (p.161, l.15) BP1
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 4 (p.172, l.7) BP1, 19 § 6 (p.172, l.17) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.6) BP1, 27 § 5 (p.178, l.15) BP1, 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 22, 38 QDS 27 § 4 (p.178, l.8) BP1
Matthew 22, 39 QDS 28 § 1 (p.178, l.18) BP1, 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 25, 34 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 35 QDS 13 § 4 (p.168, l.8) BP1, 13 § 6 (p.168, l.16) BP1
Matthew 25, 40 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 41 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Matthew 25, 43 QDS 13 § 4 (p.168, l.8) BP1, 13 § 6 (p.168, l.16) BP1
Matthew 25, 45 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Matthew 25, 46 QDS 33 § 3 (p.182, l.4) BP1

Mark 2, 7 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.25) BP1
Mark 2, 14, 17 QDS 13 § 5 (p.168, l.11) BP1
Mark 2, 17 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.24) BP1
Mark 9, 47 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.24) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1, 6 § 4 (p.164, l.9) BP1, 8 § 2 (p.165, l.2) BP1, 10 § 4 (p.166, l.9) BP1, 20 § 1 (p.172, l.23) BP1, 23 § 4 (p.175, l.13) BP1, 27 § 1 (p.177, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 18 QDS 1 § 2 (p.159, l.8) BP1, 6 § 4 (p.164, l.11) BP1, 7 § 1 (p.164, l.17) BP1, 23 § 2 (p.175, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 19 QDS 26 § 2 (p.177, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 20 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.1) BP1, 10 § 4 (p.166, l.7) BP1
Mark 10, 21 QDS 9 § 1 (p.165, l.16) BP1, 10 § 1 (p.165, l.25) BP1, 10 § 3 (p.166, l.3) BP1, 10 § 3 (p.166, l.4) BP1, 11 § 1 (p.166, l.24) BP1, 14 § 6 (p.169, l.9) BP1, 15 § 1 (p.169, l.14) BP1, 16 § 1 (p.169, l.33) BP1, 19 § 6 (p.172, l.14) BP1, 26 § 2 (p.177, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 22 QDS 11 § 1 (p.166, l.22) BP1, 20 § 1 (p.172, l.22) BP1, 20 § 5 (p.173, l.8) BP1
Mark 10, 23 QDS 18 § 1 (p.171, l.4) BP1
Mark 10, 25 QDS 2 § 2 (p.160, l.21) BP1, 2 § 2 (p.161, l.2) BP1, 3 § 1 (p.161, l.14) BP1, 26 § 7 (p.177, l.22) BP1
Mark 10, 26 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.30) BP1, 20 § 4 (p.173, l.2) BP1
Mark 10, 27 QDS 2 § 2 (p.161, l.3) BP1, 20 § 1 (p.172, l.24) BP1, 21 § 1 (p.173, l.14) BP1
Mark 10, 28 QDS 21 § 5 (p.174, l.1) BP1
Mark 10, 29 QDS 22 § 1 (p.174, l.11) BP1
Mark 10, 30 QDS 22 § 1 (p.174, l.11) BP1, 25 § 1 (p.175, l.28) BP1, 25 § 3 (p.176, l.3) BP1, 25 § 8 (p.176, l.26) BP1
Mark 10, 31 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1, 26 § 1 (p.176, l.27) BP1, 27 § 1 (p.177, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 45 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.8) BP1
Mark 12, 27 QDS 42 § 20 (p.191, l.10) BP1
Mark 12, 28 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.5) BP1
Mark 13, 13 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.21) BP1
Mark 13, 33 QDS 21 § 2 (p.173, l.21) BP1
Mark 13, 37 QDS 21 § 2 (p.173, l.21) BP1
Mark 14, 23, 25 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1

Luke 1, 78 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.12) BP1
Luke 3, 9 QDS 29 § 3 (p.179, l.9) BP1
Luke 5, 1 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.32) BP1, 25 § 2 (p.176, l.1) BP1
Luke 5, 11 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.32) BP1, 25 § 2 (p.176, l.1) BP1
Luke 6, 27 QDS 22 § 4 (p.174, l.18) BP1
Luke 6, 29 QDS 18 § 4 (p.171, l.16) BP1
Luke 6, 30 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.2) BP1
Luke 6, 35 QDS 22 § 4 (p.174, l.18) BP1
Luke 6, 37, 38 QDS 33 § 4 (p.182, l.6) BP1
Luke 6, 45 QDS 14 § 5 (p.169, l.8) BP1, 15 § 1 (p.169, l.13) BP1, 17 § 2 (p.170, l.23) BP1
Luke 6, 46 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.21) BP1
Luke 7, 28 QDS 31 § 3 (p.180, l.14) BP1
Luke 8, 14 QDS 11 § 2 (p.166, l.29) BP1
Luke 9, 60 QDS 23 § 2 (p.175, l.6) BP1
Luke 9, 62 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.5) BP1
Luke 10, 16 QDS 30 § 6 (p.180, l.6) BP1
Luke 10, 20 QDS 21 § 6 (p.174, l.7) BP1
Luke 10, 21 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.8) BP1
Luke 10, 22 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.25) BP1
Luke 10, 23, 24 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.22) BP1
Luke 10, 27 QDS 30 § 1 (p.179, l.24) BP1
Luke 10, 29, 30 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.20) BP1
Luke 10, 30 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1
Luke 10, 33, 35 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.3) BP1, 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.21) BP1, 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1
Luke 10, 38, 42 QDS 10 § 6 (p.166, l.14) BP1
Luke 11, 8 QDS 42 § 19 (p.191, l.8) BP1
Luke 11, 9 QDS 4 § 2 (p.162, l.13) BP1, 10 § 2 (p.166, l.2) BP1
Luke 11, 13 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.1) BP1
Luke 12, 32 QDS 31 § 2 (p.180, l.12) BP1
Luke 12, 34 QDS 17 § 1 (p.170, l.20) BP1
Luke 12, 58 QDS 40 § 5 (p.187, l.4) BP1
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 2 (p.174, l.15) BP1, 22 § 5 (p.174, l.23) BP1, 22 § 7 (p.174, l.27) BP1, 23 § 5 (p.175, l.18) BP1, 25 § 7 (p.176, l.19) BP1
Luke 15, 7 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1
Luke 15, 24 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1
Luke 16, 9 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.5) BP1, 31 § 5 (p.180, l.20) BP1, 31 § 9 (p.181, l.5) BP1, 32 § 1 (p.181, l.7) BP1, 32 § 4 (p.181, l.13) BP1, 32 § 6 (p.181, l.18) BP1
Luke 17, 3, 4 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.27) BP1
Luke 18, 14 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.3) BP1
Luke 18, 18 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1
Luke 18, 30 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1
Luke 19, 8, 9 QDS 13 § 5 (p.168, l.11) BP1

John 1, 17 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.27) BP1
John 1, 18 QDS 37 § 1 (p.183, l.32) BP1
John 6, 50 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.11) BP1
John 6, 55 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.11) BP1
John 14, 6 QDS 16 § 1 (p.169, l.34) BP1
John 14, 15 QDS 29 § 5 (p.179, l.18) BP1
John 14, 23 QDS 33 § 6 (p.182, l.15) BP1
John 14, 27 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.9) BP1
John 15, 5, 6 QDS 37 § 6 (p.184, l.18) BP1
John 15, 13 QDS 37 § 5 (p.184, l.11) BP1
John 17, 2 QDS 6 § 4 (p.164, l.12) BP1
John 17, 3 QDS 7 § 1 (p.164, l.14) BP1, 7 § 3 (p.164, l.22) BP1
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:39 pm

Part 2

Mark 10, 18 QDS 1 § 2 (p.159, l.8)
Luke 18, 14 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.3) BP1
Matthew 5, 16 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.12) BP1
Mark 10, 27 QDS 2 § 2 (p.161, l.3) BP1
Mark 10, 25 QDS 2 § 2 (p.160, l.21) BP1, 2 § 2 (p.161, l.2) BP1, 3 § 1 (p.161, l.14) BP1
Matthew 19, 17 QDS 3 § 1 (p.161, l.15) BP1
Luke 11, 9 QDS 4 § 2 (p.162, l.13) BP1
Mark 10, 17 - Mark 10, 31 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1
Luke 18, 18 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1
Luke 18, 30 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1
Matthew 13, 38 QDS 5 § 4 (p.163, l.25) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 6 § 4 (p.164, l.9) BP1
Luke 10, 22 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.25) BP1
John 1, 17 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 20 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.1) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.2) BP1
Mark 10, 21 QDS 9 § 1 (p.165, l.16) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 10 § 4 (p.166, l.9) BP1
Luke 10, 38, 42 QDS 10 § 6 (p.166, l.14) BP1
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.6) BP1,
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 7 (p.168, l.18) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 16 § 3 (p.170, l.12) BP1,
Matthew 13, 44 QDS 17 § 3 (p.170, l.27) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.33) BP1,
Matthew 5, 6 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.34) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 19 § 2 (p.172, l.2) BP1
Matthew 5, 8 QDS 19 § 3 (p.172, l.5) BP1
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 4 (p.172, l.7) BP1,
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 6 (p.172, l.17) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.23) BP1,
Matthew 11, 12 QDS 21 § 3 (p.173, l.22) BP1
Matthew 16, 18 QDS 21 § 4 (p.173, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.13) BP1,
Matthew 16, 25 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.27) BP1
Matthew 7, 14 QDS 26 § 8 (p.177, l.24) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 27 § 1 (p.177, l.27) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.6) BP1,
Matthew 22, 38 QDS 27 § 4 (p.178, l.8) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 5 (p.178, l.15) BP1,
Matthew 22, 39 QDS 28 § 1 (p.178, l.18) BP1,
Matthew 22, 39 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 7, 21 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.19) BP1
Matthew 18, 10 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.9) BP1
Matthew 10, 41, 42 QDS 31 § 4 (p.180, l.16) BP1
Matthew 5, 13, 14 QDS 36 § 1 (p.183, l.23) BP1
Matthew 13, 38 QDS 36 § 2 (p.183, l.24) BP1
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Stuart
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Stuart » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:31 pm

So this week it's Clement you are fawning all over. Hum.

This is an apologetic "argument" (I don't see a logic here) at best. So you just gave a big list of references (whoopee) that shows a 3rd century Clement knew all four Gospels. Well that is a given. All the writers during Severin dynasty knew all the Gospels. That proves nothing of order.

Why don't you ask if Martha and the Samaritan stories started in Luke or John. Which one explains the other better? What does it say about the theology of the writers of these stories. Try answering these questions.

And save the reference book for a linked PDF you put up on google Docs (that means put all those references in a PDF). I mean come on man, this is the forum writer equivalent of "nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah I'm not listening and I am going to keep talking 'nah nah nah' until you go away." You are better than that. On a serious note, have you ever worked for a company as a professional? You cannot waste people's time with long winded dumps. Get to the key point quickly and back it up with your best point. Think elevator pitch.

neilgodfrey
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:33 am

Randel Helms, "Gospel Fictions", raised the possibility that Mary and Martha originated in the Signs Gospel used by the author of the Gospel of John. His suggestion is that the Signs Gospel contained an Egyptian inspired story about Lazarus. The Egyptian myth contained two sisters of the Osiris who was raised from the dead, Isis and Nephthys. If those two sisters were the source of the Mary and Martha sister of Lazarus in the Signs Gospel, we have one possible (if speculative) answer to the question. (Both Mary and Martha mean "bitter", iirc, --- associated with death, here.)

But notice that in the Gospel of John chapter 11 the author reduces Mary to a backward position behind Martha. Martha is the one who emerges as the more "Christian" and Mary is relegated to a back seat. Even in the resurrection appearance we see Mary's witness relegated to a back seat (as per Crossan's "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography") since in merely seeing Jesus (after not even recognizing him at first) she is reduced to a place behind the disciple who believes without seeing. John places Mary (starting with the Martha story in John 11) to a back seat.
11 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. ... ” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. . . . .

17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

28 After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him.


If the Gospel of Luke in its current canonical form was composed after the Gospel of John (there are a number of arguments in favour of this model) then we find Luke taking John's denigration of Mary and reversing the situation, placing Mary ahead of Martha.

Luke, the catholicizing gospel of the mid to later second century, is in the business of restoring the reputation of Mary Magdalene. John had attempted to place the various cults/epistles of Mary, Thomas et al in an inferior place behind his own. (Canonical Luke was, however, redacting an earlier version of "Luke", as per the arguments of Joseph Tyson.)

It's a theory.

Stuart
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Stuart » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:17 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:33 am
If the Gospel of Luke in its current canonical form was composed after the Gospel of John (there are a number of arguments in favour of this model) then we find Luke taking John's denigration of Mary and reversing the situation, placing Mary ahead of Martha.

Luke, the catholicizing gospel of the mid to later second century, is in the business of restoring the reputation of Mary Magdalene. John had attempted to place the various cults/epistles of Mary, Thomas et al in an inferior place behind his own. (Canonical Luke was, however, redacting an earlier version of "Luke", as per the arguments of Joseph Tyson.)

It's a theory.
Neil,

Excellent observations. This is exactly the route I was thinking of exploring in the follow up posts.

My first impression of the Lazarus story in John, which IMO is a spin-off of the Lazarus and the Rich man story in Marcion (Luke 16:19-29, with verses 16:30-31 added by the Catholic editor of Luke), was that Mary was not present in the first draft of the story. The story is about the sister Martha and the brother Lazarus. One of the telltale signs Mary was added later is that verse 11:2 reminds us that Mary anointed the feet of Jesus with oil. However that event has not yet to occur, as this is verses 12:1-8, and verse 12:1 refers back to the Lazarus story here (in programming this leads to either an infinite loop, or if a shared resource is required, a deadlock). :scratch:

I later revised my view of the 2nd layer, which I think is mostly a running commentary, where either a narrator is speaking to the reader/audience or Jesus is speaking or narrating/commenting to the reader/audience explaining things not in the dialogue of the story (there are a few subtle differences in theology between layers 1 & 2, but that is for another topic). It was however layer 2 that produced the Gospel which was published, and includes the famous passage of John 3:16-21 (this is the narrator speaking to the audience ... while the set is darkened and the stage hands are setting up the next scene).

If you are interested in my view of John, which might be useful for understanding my perspective here, I wrote a blog post
http://sgwau2cbeginnings.blogspot.com/2 ... rship.html

Anyway, back to the topic at hand like Joseph Turmel, I recognize that John rejects Mary. ("What are you to me woman" John's Jesus says to his supposed mother at the Cana wedding). But what is interesting is that in the Lazarus story John associates Mary with the Jews (i.e., Jewish Christians, or as they were referred to by the heretics, "the Judiazers" - meaning those who wanted to turn Christians into Jews, followers of the Jewish God).

Martha and Mary in John are meant as contrasts. The Jews came to console the sisters over the death of their brother (11:19). But Martha leaves the Jews to come to (John's) Jesus (11:20), while Mary stays with the Jews. Mary when she finally comes to Jesus (Martha is converted in verses 11:21-27 and asks here sister to come in 11:28), she is still with the Jews. And she complains to John's Jesus that he did not save Lazarus (the same issue as the Lazarus and the rich man story in Luke, where the rich Jew is not saved) in verses 11:31-32.

Verse 11:36 the Jews (Jewish Christians) remark that Mary loved Lazarus because she weeps - as they also did with her in 11:33 (displaying one's piety is frowned upon, a point missed by many). But in verse 11:45 while some Jews (Jewish Christians) convert to John's Jesus, it seems Mary does not. By verse 12:2 Martha appears again, serving Jesus. I actually think verse 12:7 is an insult to Mary, "ignore her" and on the ointment, "let her keep it for the day of my burial." Mary in fact does not even recognize Jesus in his resurrection in verse 20:15 - this is the same Mary as she is weeping in verse 2:11 (not Mary Magdalene), as he is not the one she is seeking --- she thinks he's the gardener.

There are many other things going on in the burial and resurrection scene, too much to easily unravel all the layering which makes the current version extremely contradictory. But elements of Jesus rejecting Mary yet again are still there. To John, the cult of Mary is tied to the Davidic Jesus of the proto-orthodox, and so he rejects it. Other Gnostics would embrace Mary or other roles of Mary (wife?) but not the author of John in layer's 1 & 2. That is my reading.

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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:43 pm

By all means continue following the suggestion of Neil. I would like to complete my little investigation into Clement as it is our only ACTUAL bit of evidence for the transmission of the narrative. Now to turn around the list of citations to match the order of QDS

QDS

chapter 1

Mark 10, 18 QDS 1 § 2 (p.159, l.8)
Luke 18, 14 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.3) BP1
Matthew 5, 16 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.12) BP1

chapter 2

Mark 10, 25 QDS 2 § 2 (p.160, l.21) BP1,
Mark 10, 25 QDS 2 § 2 (p.161, l.2) BP1,
Mark 10, 27 QDS 2 § 2 (p.161, l.3) BP1

chapter 3

Mark 10, 25 QDS 3 § 1 (p.161, l.14) BP1
Matthew 19, 17 QDS 3 § 1 (p.161, l.15) BP1

chapter 4

Luke 11, 9 QDS 4 § 2 (p.162, l.13) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1
Mark 10, 31 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1

chapter 5

Luke 18, 18 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1
Luke 18, 30 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1
Matthew 13, 38 QDS 5 § 4 (p.163, l.25) BP1

chapter 6

Mark 10, 17, 18 QDS 6 § 4 (p.164, l.9) BP1
John 17, 2 QDS 6 § 4 (p.164, l.12) BP1

chapter 7

Mark 10, 18 QDS 7 § 1 (p.164, l.17) BP1,
John 17, 3 QDS 7 § 1 (p.164, l.14) BP1,
John 17, 3 QDS 7 § 3 (p.164, l.22) BP1

chapter 8

Luke 10, 22 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.25) BP1
John 1, 17 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 20 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.1) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.2) BP1

chapter 9

Mark 10, 21 QDS 9 § 1 (p.165, l.16) BP1

chapter 10

Mark 10, 21 QDS 10 § 1 (p.165, l.25) BP1,
Luke 11, 9 QDS 10 § 2 (p.166, l.2) BP1
Mark 10, 21 QDS 10 § 3 (p.166, l.3) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 10 § 3 (p.166, l.4) BP1,
Mark 10, 20 QDS 10 § 4 (p.166, l.7) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 10 § 4 (p.166, l.9) BP1
Luke 10, 38, 42 QDS 10 § 6 (p.166, l.14) BP1

chapter 11

Mark 10, 22 QDS 11 § 1 (p.166, l.22) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 11 § 1 (p.166, l.24) BP1,
Luke 8, 14 QDS 11 § 2 (p.166, l.29) BP1

chapter 12

chapter 13

Luke 16, 9 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.5) BP1,
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.6) BP1,
Matthew 25, 35 QDS 13 § 4 (p.168, l.8) BP1,
Mark 2, 14, 17 QDS 13 § 5 (p.168, l.11) BP1
Luke 19, 8, 9 QDS 13 § 5 (p.168, l.11) BP1
Matthew 25, 35 QDS 13 § 6 (p.168, l.16) BP1
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 7 (p.168, l.18) BP1

chapter 14

Luke 6, 45 QDS 14 § 5 (p.169, l.8) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 14 § 6 (p.169, l.9) BP1,

chapter 15

Luke 6, 45 QDS 15 § 1 (p.169, l.13) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 15 § 1 (p.169, l.14) BP1,

chapter 16

Mark 10, 21 QDS 16 § 1 (p.169, l.33) BP1,
John 14, 6 QDS 16 § 1 (p.169, l.34) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 16 § 3 (p.170, l.12) BP1,

chapter 17

Luke 12, 34 QDS 17 § 1 (p.170, l.20) BP1
Luke 6, 45 QDS 17 § 2 (p.170, l.23) BP1
Matthew 13, 44 QDS 17 § 3 (p.170, l.27) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.33) BP1,
Matthew 5, 6 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.34) BP1

chapter 18

Mark 10, 23 QDS 18 § 1 (p.171, l.4) BP1
Luke 6, 29 QDS 18 § 4 (p.171, l.16) BP1

chapter 19

Matthew 5, 3 QDS 19 § 2 (p.172, l.2) BP1
Matthew 5, 8 QDS 19 § 3 (p.172, l.5) BP1
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 4 (p.172, l.7) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 19 § 6 (p.172, l.14) BP1,
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 6 (p.172, l.17) BP1

chapter 20

Mark 10, 22 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.22) BP1,
Mark 10, 17 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.23) BP1,
Mark 10, 27 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.24) BP1,
Mark 10, 26 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.30) BP1,
Luke 5, 1 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.32) BP1,
Luke 5, 11 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.32) BP1,
Mark 10, 26 QDS 20 § 4 (p.173, l.2) BP1
Mark 10, 22 QDS 20 § 5 (p.173, l.8) BP1

chapter 21

Mark 10, 27 QDS 21 § 1 (p.173, l.14) BP1
Mark 13, 33 QDS 21 § 2 (p.173, l.21) BP1
Mark 13, 37 QDS 21 § 2 (p.173, l.21) BP1
Matthew 11, 12 QDS 21 § 3 (p.173, l.22) BP1
Matthew 16, 18 QDS 21 § 4 (p.173, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 28 QDS 21 § 5 (p.174, l.1) BP1
Luke 10, 20 QDS 21 § 6 (p.174, l.7) BP1

chapter 22

Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 22 § 1 (p.174, l.11) BP1
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 2 (p.174, l.15) BP1,
Luke 6, 27 QDS 22 § 4 (p.174, l.18) BP1
Luke 6, 35 QDS 22 § 4 (p.174, l.18) BP1
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 5 (p.174, l.23) BP1,
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 7 (p.174, l.27) BP1,

chapter 23

Mark 10, 18 QDS 23 § 2 (p.175, l.5) BP1
Luke 9, 60 QDS 23 § 2 (p.175, l.6) BP1
John 6, 50 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.11) BP1
John 6, 55 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.11) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.13) BP1,
Luke 14, 26 QDS 23 § 5 (p.175, l.18) BP1,

chapter 24

Mark 2, 17 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.24) BP1
Mark 9, 47 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.24) BP1
Matthew 16, 25 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.27) BP1

chapter 25

Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 25 § 1 (p.175, l.28) BP1,
Luke 5, 1 QDS 25 § 2 (p.176, l.1) BP1
Luke 5, 11 QDS 25 § 2 (p.176, l.1) BP1
Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 25 § 3 (p.176, l.3) BP1,
Luke 14, 26 QDS 25 § 7 (p.176, l.19) BP1
Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 25 § 8 (p.176, l.26) BP1

chapter 26

Mark 10, 19 QDS 26 § 2 (p.177, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 21 QDS 26 § 2 (p.177, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 25 QDS 26 § 7 (p.177, l.22) BP1
Matthew 7, 14 QDS 26 § 8 (p.177, l.24) BP1

chapter 27

Mark 10, 17 QDS 27 § 1 (p.177, l.27) BP1
Mark 12, 28 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.5) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.6) BP1
Matthew 22, 38 QDS 27 § 4 (p.178, l.8) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 5 (p.178, l.15) BP1,

chapter 28

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 28 § 1 (p.178, l.18) BP1
Luke 10, 29, 30 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.20) BP1
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.21) BP1,
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1
Luke 10, 30 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1

chapter 29

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Luke 10, 33, 35 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.3) BP1,
Luke 3, 9 QDS 29 § 3 (p.179, l.9) BP1
Luke 10, 33 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1
Mark 14, 23, 25 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1
Luke 1, 78 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.12) BP1
John 14, 15 QDS 29 § 5 (p.179, l.18) BP1
Matthew 7, 21 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.19) BP1
Luke 6, 46 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.21) BP1
Luke 10, 23, 24 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.22) BP1

chapter 30

Luke 10, 27 QDS 30 § 1 (p.179, l.24) BP1
Matthew 25, 34 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 40 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 45 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Matthew 25, 41 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Luke 10, 16 QDS 30 § 6 (p.180, l.6) BP1

chapter 31

Luke 10, 21 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.8) BP1
Matthew 18, 10 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.9) BP1
Luke 12, 32 QDS 31 § 2 (p.180, l.12) BP1
Luke 7, 28 QDS 31 § 3 (p.180, l.14) BP1
Matthew 10, 41, 42 QDS 31 § 4 (p.180, l.16) BP1
Luke 16, 9 QDS 31 § 5 (p.180, l.20) BP1,
Luke 6, 30 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.2) BP1
Luke 16, 9 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.5) BP1,

chapter 32

Luke 16, 9 QDS 32 § 1 (p.181, l.7) BP1,
Luke 15, 9 QDS 32 § 4 (p.181, l.13) BP1,
Luke 16, 9 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.18) BP1
Mark 13, 13 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.21) BP1

chapter 33

Matthew 25, 46 QDS 33 § 3 (p.182, l.4) BP1
Luke 6, 37, 38 QDS 33 § 4 (p.182, l.6) BP1
John 14, 23 QDS 33 § 6 (p.182, l.15) BP1

chapter 34 - 36

chapter 37

John 1, 18 QDS 37 § 1 (p.183, l.32) BP1
Mark 10, 45 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.8) BP1
John 14, 27 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.9) BP1
John 15, 5, 6 QDS 37 § 6 (p.184, l.18) BP1
John 15, 13 QDS 37 § 5 (p.184, l.11) BP1

chapter 38

chapter 39

Luke 15, 7 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1
Luke 15, 24 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1
Mark 2, 7 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.25) BP1
Luke 17, 3, 4 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.27) BP1
Luke 11, 13 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.1) BP1
Luke 9, 62 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.5) BP1

chapter 40

Luke 12, 58 QDS 40 § 5 (p.187, l.4) BP1

chapter 41

chapter 42

Luke 11, 8 QDS 42 § 19 (p.191, l.8) BP1
Mark 12, 27 QDS 42 § 20 (p.191, l.10) BP1
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
Posts: 7461
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:56 pm

Let's look at how Lukan material is used by Clement. First let's make the Lukan sections blue and cite the material:

QDS

chapter 1

Mark 10, 18 QDS 1 § 2 (p.159, l.8)
Luke 18, 14 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.3) BP1 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Matthew 5, 16 QDS 1 § 4 (p.160, l.12) BP1

chapter 2

Mark 10, 25 QDS 2 § 2 (p.160, l.21) BP1,
Mark 10, 25 QDS 2 § 2 (p.161, l.2) BP1,
Mark 10, 27 QDS 2 § 2 (p.161, l.3) BP1

chapter 3

Mark 10, 25 QDS 3 § 1 (p.161, l.14) BP1
Matthew 19, 17 QDS 3 § 1 (p.161, l.15) BP1

chapter 4

Luke 11, 9 QDS 4 § 2 (p.162, l.13) BP1 "Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges."
Mark 10, 17 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1
Mark 10, 31 QDS 4 § 4 (p.162, l.19) BP1

chapter 5

Luke 18, 18 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1 "A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luke 18, 30 QDS 5 § 1 (p.163, l.14) BP1 "will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life"

Matthew 13, 38 QDS 5 § 4 (p.163, l.25) BP1

chapter 6

Mark 10, 17, 18 QDS 6 § 4 (p.164, l.9) BP1
John 17, 2 QDS 6 § 4 (p.164, l.12) BP1

chapter 7

Mark 10, 18 QDS 7 § 1 (p.164, l.17) BP1,
John 17, 3 QDS 7 § 1 (p.164, l.14) BP1,
John 17, 3 QDS 7 § 3 (p.164, l.22) BP1

chapter 8

Luke 10, 22 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.25) BP1 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
John 1, 17 QDS 8 § 1 (p.164, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 20 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.1) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 8 § 2 (p.165, l.2) BP1

chapter 9

Mark 10, 21 QDS 9 § 1 (p.165, l.16) BP1

chapter 10

Mark 10, 21 QDS 10 § 1 (p.165, l.25) BP1,
Luke 11, 9 QDS 10 § 2 (p.166, l.2) BP1 Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
Mark 10, 21 QDS 10 § 3 (p.166, l.3) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 10 § 3 (p.166, l.4) BP1,
Mark 10, 20 QDS 10 § 4 (p.166, l.7) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 10 § 4 (p.166, l.9) BP1
Luke 10, 38, 42 QDS 10 § 6 (p.166, l.14) BP1 "But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!” “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed ... Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”

chapter 11

Mark 10, 22 QDS 11 § 1 (p.166, l.22) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 11 § 1 (p.166, l.24) BP1,
Luke 8, 14 QDS 11 § 2 (p.166, l.29) BP1 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

chapter 12

chapter 13

Luke 16, 9 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.5) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 3 (p.168, l.6) BP1,
Matthew 25, 35 QDS 13 § 4 (p.168, l.8) BP1,
Mark 2, 14, 17 QDS 13 § 5 (p.168, l.11) BP1
Luke 19, 8, 9 QDS 13 § 5 (p.168, l.11) BP1 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
Matthew 25, 35 QDS 13 § 6 (p.168, l.16) BP1
Matthew 6, 20 QDS 13 § 7 (p.168, l.18) BP1

chapter 14

Luke 6, 45 QDS 14 § 5 (p.169, l.8) BP1, 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Mark 10, 21 QDS 14 § 6 (p.169, l.9) BP1,

chapter 15

Luke 6, 45 QDS 15 § 1 (p.169, l.13) BP1, 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Mark 10, 21 QDS 15 § 1 (p.169, l.14) BP1,

chapter 16

Mark 10, 21 QDS 16 § 1 (p.169, l.33) BP1,
John 14, 6 QDS 16 § 1 (p.169, l.34) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 16 § 3 (p.170, l.12) BP1,

chapter 17

Luke 12, 34 QDS 17 § 1 (p.170, l.20) BP1 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Luke 6, 45 QDS 17 § 2 (p.170, l.23) BP1 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Matthew 13, 44 QDS 17 § 3 (p.170, l.27) BP1
Matthew 5, 3 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.33) BP1,
Matthew 5, 6 QDS 17 § 5 (p.170, l.34) BP1

chapter 18

Mark 10, 23 QDS 18 § 1 (p.171, l.4) BP1
Luke 6, 29 QDS 18 § 4 (p.171, l.16) BP1 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

chapter 19

Matthew 5, 3 QDS 19 § 2 (p.172, l.2) BP1
Matthew 5, 8 QDS 19 § 3 (p.172, l.5) BP1
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 4 (p.172, l.7) BP1,
Mark 10, 21 QDS 19 § 6 (p.172, l.14) BP1,
Matthew 19, 21 QDS 19 § 6 (p.172, l.17) BP1

chapter 20

Mark 10, 22 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.22) BP1,
Mark 10, 17 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.23) BP1,
Mark 10, 27 QDS 20 § 1 (p.172, l.24) BP1,
Mark 10, 26 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.30) BP1,
Luke 5, 1 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.32) BP1, One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret,[a] the people were crowding around him and listening to the word of God.
Luke 5, 11 QDS 20 § 3 (p.172, l.32) BP1, So they pulled their boats up on shore, left everything and followed him.
Mark 10, 26 QDS 20 § 4 (p.173, l.2) BP1
Mark 10, 22 QDS 20 § 5 (p.173, l.8) BP1

chapter 21

Mark 10, 27 QDS 21 § 1 (p.173, l.14) BP1
Mark 13, 33 QDS 21 § 2 (p.173, l.21) BP1
Mark 13, 37 QDS 21 § 2 (p.173, l.21) BP1
Matthew 11, 12 QDS 21 § 3 (p.173, l.22) BP1
Matthew 16, 18 QDS 21 § 4 (p.173, l.27) BP1
Mark 10, 28 QDS 21 § 5 (p.174, l.1) BP1
Luke 10, 20 QDS 21 § 6 (p.174, l.7) BP1 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

chapter 22

Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 22 § 1 (p.174, l.11) BP1
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 2 (p.174, l.15) BP1, If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Luke 6, 27 QDS 22 § 4 (p.174, l.18) BP1 But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
Luke 6, 35 QDS 22 § 4 (p.174, l.18) BP1 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 5 (p.174, l.23) BP1, If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14, 26 QDS 22 § 7 (p.174, l.27) BP1, If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.


chapter 23

Mark 10, 18 QDS 23 § 2 (p.175, l.5) BP1
Luke 9, 60 QDS 23 § 2 (p.175, l.6) BP1 60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
John 6, 50 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.11) BP1
John 6, 55 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.11) BP1
Mark 10, 17 QDS 23 § 4 (p.175, l.13) BP1,
Luke 14, 26 QDS 23 § 5 (p.175, l.18) BP1, If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

chapter 24

Mark 2, 17 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.24) BP1
Mark 9, 47 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.24) BP1
Matthew 16, 25 QDS 24 § 2 (p.175, l.27) BP1

chapter 25

Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 25 § 1 (p.175, l.28) BP1,
Luke 5, 1 QDS 25 § 2 (p.176, l.1) BP1 One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret, the people were crowding around him and listening to the word of God.
Luke 5, 11 QDS 25 § 2 (p.176, l.1) BP1 So they pulled their boats up on shore, left everything and followed him.

Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 25 § 3 (p.176, l.3) BP1,
Luke 14, 26 QDS 25 § 7 (p.176, l.19) BP1 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Mark 10, 29, 30 QDS 25 § 8 (p.176, l.26) BP1

chapter 26

Mark 10, 19 QDS 26 § 2 (p.177, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 21 QDS 26 § 2 (p.177, l.5) BP1
Mark 10, 25 QDS 26 § 7 (p.177, l.22) BP1
Matthew 7, 14 QDS 26 § 8 (p.177, l.24) BP1

chapter 27

Mark 10, 17 QDS 27 § 1 (p.177, l.27) BP1
Mark 12, 28 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.5) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.6) BP1
Matthew 22, 38 QDS 27 § 4 (p.178, l.8) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 5 (p.178, l.15) BP1,

chapter 28

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 28 § 1 (p.178, l.18) BP1
Luke 10, 29, 30 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.20) BP1 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers.
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.21) BP1, The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10, 30 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers.


chapter 29

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Luke 10, 33, 35 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.3) BP1, But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
Luke 3, 9 QDS 29 § 3 (p.179, l.9) BP1 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Luke 10, 33 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.

Mark 14, 23, 25 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1
Luke 1, 78 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.12) BP1 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
John 14, 15 QDS 29 § 5 (p.179, l.18) BP1
Matthew 7, 21 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.19) BP1
Luke 6, 46 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.21) BP1 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 10, 23, 24 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.22) BP1 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”


chapter 30

Luke 10, 27 QDS 30 § 1 (p.179, l.24) BP1 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 25, 34 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 40 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 45 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Matthew 25, 41 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Luke 10, 16 QDS 30 § 6 (p.180, l.6) BP1 Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.

chapter 31

Luke 10, 21 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.8) BP1 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Matthew 18, 10 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.9) BP1
Luke 12, 32 QDS 31 § 2 (p.180, l.12) BP1 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
Luke 7, 28 QDS 31 § 3 (p.180, l.14) BP1 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he

Matthew 10, 41, 42 QDS 31 § 4 (p.180, l.16) BP1
Luke 16, 9 QDS 31 § 5 (p.180, l.20) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
Luke 6, 30 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.2) BP1 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
Luke 16, 9 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.5) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.


chapter 32

Luke 16, 9 QDS 32 § 1 (p.181, l.7) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
Luke 15, 9 QDS 32 § 4 (p.181, l.13) BP1,
Luke 16, 9 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.18) BP1 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Mark 13, 13 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.21) BP1

chapter 33

Matthew 25, 46 QDS 33 § 3 (p.182, l.4) BP1
Luke 6, 37, 38 QDS 33 § 4 (p.182, l.6) BP1 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
John 14, 23 QDS 33 § 6 (p.182, l.15) BP1

chapter 34 - 36

chapter 37

John 1, 18 QDS 37 § 1 (p.183, l.32) BP1
Mark 10, 45 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.8) BP1
John 14, 27 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.9) BP1
John 15, 5, 6 QDS 37 § 6 (p.184, l.18) BP1
John 15, 13 QDS 37 § 5 (p.184, l.11) BP1

chapter 38

chapter 39

Luke 15, 7 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15, 24 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Mark 2, 7 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.25) BP1
Luke 17, 3, 4 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.27) BP1 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
Luke 11, 13 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.1) BP1 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Luke 9, 62 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.5) BP1 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”


chapter 40

Luke 12, 58 QDS 40 § 5 (p.187, l.4) BP1 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.

chapter 41

chapter 42

Luke 11, 8 QDS 42 § 19 (p.191, l.8) BP1 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
Mark 12, 27 QDS 42 § 20 (p.191, l.10) BP1
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Stuart
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:24 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Stuart » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:01 pm

Stephen,

You are becoming unglued again. You repeated the same anti-social behavior with another appendix dump. Put it in a PDF and use google docs then point to it. If anyone wants to look at the list you compiled they can follow the link. Why are you wasting space?

And for what it is worth it means nothing to the argument in front of us, as we are working here under the assumption that Clement wrote during the Severin dynasty. This puts him at least a generation (probably two) after the last canonical from of a gospel was published even in the most late dating around 180-185 AD. So his knowledge of the material is irrelevant.

Note: Stephen has another thread running with his QDS dump. He should not pollute another threat with it.

Mods, this behavior of source dumping appendix material to shout out debate is simply unacceptable behavior by Stephen. He really needs a warning before he runs off another five pages of such in an effort to "shut down" debate.

neilgodfrey
Posts: 2908
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by neilgodfrey » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Stuart wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:17 am
But in verse 11:45 while some Jews (Jewish Christians) convert to John's Jesus, it seems Mary does not.
Your thought is in synch with that of Thomas Brodie in his commentary on the Gospel of John:
Mary is mentioned first and, through the reference to the anointing, her prominence is underlined (vv 1-2), but already by the end of the opening scene Martha's name has taken priority, and Mary's name has faded (v 5).

In subsequent scenes Martha and Mary show diverse reactions. With identical words both express some bitterness ("Lord if you had been here. . . . Lord if you had been here. . . . " vv 21, 32, but while Martha rises above here sense of loss, Mary does not.

In the final two scenes they are both mentioned, but in very different ways. Martha's faith helped to bring Lazarus to life (v 40), but some of those who had been with Mary triggered the meeting which decided to kill Jesus (vv 46-47). (p. 386)
Ouch. That's a damning observation:
John 11: 45 Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.

“What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation.”

49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
The final redactor of Luke had to wok overtime to rehabilitate Mary.

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