How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

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Secret Alias
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:19 am

Stuart

Just to keep things real. You keep claiming that you don't engage in personal attacks but the tone of all your posts displays the opposite:
Stephen,

You are becoming unglued again.
What you don't seem to get is that people like you want this to be about YOU and the opinions YOU LIKE. So you basically go about formulating 'theories' about this or that without looking at the actual evidence - the evidence in this case is the earliest citation of the story - Clement of Alexandria.

What you consider a 'dump' is in fact me SPENDING THREE DAYS EXAMINING CLEMENT'S EARLIEST CITATION OF THE STORY IN ORDER TO SEE WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM CLEMENT. I know this goes against your normal habit of doggedly defending your narcissistic 'theory' about this or that in early Christianity but I will never stop going back to the sources. Apologies for not playing the game in a narcissistic manner.

In any event what I notice from the pattern in Clement's QDS - again the earliest source for the story - is that what starts out as a Mark vs Matthew homily interestingly the frequency of what we would call 'Lukan' references increases in the later portions of QDS.

By the end of the treatise CLEMENT SEEMS TO ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY CITE LUKE AND JOHN:

chapter 28
Matthew 22, 39 QDS 28 § 1 (p.178, l.18) BP1
Luke 10, 29, 30 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.20) BP1 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers.
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.21) BP1, The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10, 30 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers.


chapter 29

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Luke 10, 33, 35 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.3) BP1, But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
Luke 3, 9 QDS 29 § 3 (p.179, l.9) BP1 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Luke 10, 33 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.

Mark 14, 23, 25 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1
Luke 1, 78 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.12) BP1 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
John 14, 15 QDS 29 § 5 (p.179, l.18) BP1
Matthew 7, 21 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.19) BP1
Luke 6, 46 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.21) BP1 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 10, 23, 24 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.22) BP1 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”


chapter 30

Luke 10, 27 QDS 30 § 1 (p.179, l.24) BP1 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 25, 34 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 40 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 45 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Matthew 25, 41 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Luke 10, 16 QDS 30 § 6 (p.180, l.6) BP1 Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.

chapter 31

Luke 10, 21 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.8) BP1 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Matthew 18, 10 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.9) BP1
Luke 12, 32 QDS 31 § 2 (p.180, l.12) BP1 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
Luke 7, 28 QDS 31 § 3 (p.180, l.14) BP1 I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he

Matthew 10, 41, 42 QDS 31 § 4 (p.180, l.16) BP1
Luke 16, 9 QDS 31 § 5 (p.180, l.20) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
Luke 6, 30 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.2) BP1 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
Luke 16, 9 QDS 31 § 9 (p.181, l.5) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.


chapter 32

Luke 16, 9 QDS 32 § 1 (p.181, l.7) BP1, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
Luke 15, 9 QDS 32 § 4 (p.181, l.13) BP1, And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’
Luke 16, 9 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.18) BP1 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Mark 13, 13 QDS 32 § 6 (p.181, l.21) BP1

chapter 33

Matthew 25, 46 QDS 33 § 3 (p.182, l.4) BP1
Luke 6, 37, 38 QDS 33 § 4 (p.182, l.6) BP1 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
John 14, 23 QDS 33 § 6 (p.182, l.15) BP1

chapter 34 - 36

chapter 37

John 1, 18 QDS 37 § 1 (p.183, l.32) BP1
Mark 10, 45 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.8) BP1
John 14, 27 QDS 37 § 4 (p.184, l.9) BP1
John 15, 5, 6 QDS 37 § 6 (p.184, l.18) BP1
John 15, 13 QDS 37 § 5 (p.184, l.11) BP1


chapter 38

chapter 39

Luke 15, 7 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15, 24 QDS 39 § 2 (p.185, l.16) BP1 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Mark 2, 7 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.25) BP1
Luke 17, 3, 4 QDS 39 § 5 (p.185, l.27) BP1 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister[a] sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
Luke 11, 13 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.1) BP1 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Luke 9, 62 QDS 39 § 6 (p.186, l.5) BP1 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”


chapter 40

Luke 12, 58 QDS 40 § 5 (p.187, l.4) BP1 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.

chapter 41

chapter 42

Luke 11, 8 QDS 42 § 19 (p.191, l.8) BP1 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
Mark 12, 27 QDS 42 § 20 (p.191, l.10) BP1
I am still working on the first step of understanding Clement's citation of the material. I am wondering whether Clement is indeed citing Luke or another gospel which shares the same material.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:34 am

Now we need to map the section above on the actual text to see if in fact there is evidence that Clement is citing from our 'gospel of Luke'. Chapter 27 is still about 'what appears in Matthew' - a subject which Origen, Clement's adversary, seems equally fixated on. The question is why does Matthew add 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Origen says - surprisingly - that it is there as a result of a later editor falsifying a narrative originally held in common with Mark.

Clement takes a different approach. He argues that 'loving one's neighbor' is a commandment of second rank - undoubtedly because it does not appear in the Ten Commandments (although the argument is not explicitly made):
XXVII The Master accordingly, when asked, "Which is the greatest of the commandments?" says, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy soul, and with all thy strength;" that no commandment is greater than this (He says), and with exceeding good reason; for it gives command respecting the First and the Greatest, God Himself, our Father, by whom all things were brought into being, and exist, and to whom what is saved returns again. By Him, then, being loved beforehand, and having received existence, it is impious for us to regard ought else older or more excellent; rendering only this small tribute of gratitude for the greatest benefits; and being unable to imagine anything else whatever by way of recompense to God, who needs nothing and is perfect; and gaining immortality by the very exercise of loving the Father to the extent of one's might and power. For the more one loves God, the more he enters within God.

XXVIII. The second in order, and not any less than this, He says, is, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," consequently God above thyself. And on His interlocutor inquiring, "Who is my neighbour?" He did not, in the same way with the Jews, specify the blood-relation, or the fellow-citizen, or the proselyte, or him that had been similarly circumcised, or the man who uses one and the same law. But He introduces one on his way down from the upland region from Jerusalem to Jericho, and represents him stabbed by robbers, cast half-dead on the way, passed by the priest, looked sideways at by the Levite, but pitied by the vili-fied and excommunicated Samaritan; who did not, like those, pass casually, but came provided with such things as the man in danger required, such as oil, bandages, a beast of burden, money for the inn-keeper, part given now, and part promised. "Which," said He, "of them was neighbour to him that suffered these things?" and on his answering, "He that showed mercy to him," (replied), Go thou also, therefore, and do likewise, since love buds into well-doing.
My question would be - is there any reason to believe in fact that Clement is citing Luke here? I know the individual 'sound bites' make it appear to the superficial reader that 'he must be citing Luke.' But if YOU ACTUALLY READ THE TEXT Clement's argument only makes sense if this 'other gospel' - which he calls Matthew - from our perspective - COMBINED THE MATERIAL FROM MATTHEW AND LUKE.

Look at the material. He clearly is rooted in what we would call 'Matthew' in chapter 27 and indeed almost every chapter before that. In chapter 28 we'd say 'he is working from Luke' but in fact if you look carefully the context hasn't changed and indeed makes no sense if you try to argue that Clement is 'moving on' to Luke.

What in fact he is dealing with is - what we would call - a combined text of Matthew and Luke which looks something like this:
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 3 (p.178, l.6) BP1
Matthew 22, 38 QDS 27 § 4 (p.178, l.8) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 27 § 5 (p.178, l.15) BP1,

chapter 28

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 28 § 1 (p.178, l.18) BP1
Luke 10, 29, 30 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.20) BP1 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers.
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 2 (p.178, l.21) BP1, The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10, 37 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10, 30 QDS 28 § 4 (p.178, l.31) BP1 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers.

chapter 29

Matthew 22, 39 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Matthew 22, 37 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.1) BP1
Luke 10, 33, 35 QDS 29 § 1 (p.179, l.3) BP1, But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
Luke 3, 9 QDS 29 § 3 (p.179, l.9) BP1 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Luke 10, 33 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
Mark 14, 23, 25 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.10) BP1
Luke 1, 78 QDS 29 § 4 (p.179, l.12) BP1 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
John 14, 15 QDS 29 § 5 (p.179, l.18) BP1
Matthew 7, 21 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.19) BP1
Luke 6, 46 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.21) BP1 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 10, 23, 24 QDS 29 § 6 (p.179, l.22) BP1 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

chapter 30

Luke 10, 27 QDS 30 § 1 (p.179, l.24) BP1 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 25, 34 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 40 QDS 30 § 2 (p.179, l.27) BP1
Matthew 25, 45 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Matthew 25, 41 QDS 30 § 5 (p.180, l.4) BP1
Luke 10, 16 QDS 30 § 6 (p.180, l.6) BP1 Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.

chapter 31

Luke 10, 21 QDS 31 § 1 (p.180, l.8) BP1 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Or if you prefer, the Alexandrian 'Gospel' according to 'Matthew' that Clement seems to be juxtaposing against his own 'Mark' had a passage like this:
Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ 36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Again look at QDS, he is clearly dealing with a(n Alexandrian) text he calls 'Matthew' which combines Matthew and Luke:
The Master accordingly, when asked, "Which is the greatest of the commandments?" says, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy soul, and with all thy strength;" that no commandment is greater than this (He says), and with exceeding good reason; for it gives command respecting the First and the Greatest, God Himself, our Father, by whom all things were brought into being, and exist, and to whom what is saved returns again. By Him, then, being loved beforehand, and having received existence, it is impious for us to regard ought else older or more excellent; rendering only this small tribute of gratitude for the greatest benefits; and being unable to imagine anything else whatever by way of recompense to God, who needs nothing and is perfect; and gaining immortality by the very exercise of loving the Father to the extent of one's might and power. For the more one loves God, the more he enters within God.

XXVIII. The second in order, and not any less than this, He says, is, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself," consequently God above thyself. And on His interlocutor inquiring, "Who is my neighbour?" He did not, in the same way with the Jews, specify the blood-relation, or the fellow-citizen, or the proselyte, or him that had been similarly circumcised, or the man who uses one and the same law. But He introduces one on his way down from the upland region from Jerusalem to Jericho, and represents him stabbed by robbers, cast half-dead on the way, passed by the priest, looked sideways at by the Levite, but pitied by the vilified and excommunicated Samaritan; who did not, like those, pass casually, but came provided with such things as the man in danger required, such as oil, bandages, a beast of burden, money for the inn-keeper, part given now, and part promised. "Which," said He, "of them was neighbour to him that suffered these things?" and on his answering, "He that showed mercy to him," (replied), Go thou also, therefore, and do likewise, since love buds into well-doing.
So the point is that when Clement cites 'Lukan passages' he is not actually citing from our 'gospel of Luke' in QDS. Important point I'd say. Indeed it stands to reason that if - as we see from the text itself - Clement goes out of his way to say 'this is what Matthew says' or - at least from chapters 1 - 27 - is consistently juxtaposing Mark against Matthew arguing that they say essentially the same thing that by chapters 28 - 31 he is continuing the pattern which manifests itself earlier. Indeed we know from various Church Fathers that a gospel according to 'Matthai' or 'Matthias' was in Alexandria in the second century.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:17 am

And not surprisingly the Arabic Diatessaron and other 'harmonies' manifest the exact pattern that we see in QDS's 'other gospel':
And when the multitudes heard, they were wondering at his teaching. And some of the scribes answered and said unto him, Teacher, thou hast well said. But the rest of the Pharisees, when they saw his silencing the Sadducees on this point, gathered against him to contend with him. And one of the scribes, of those that knew the law, when he saw the excellence of his answer to them, desired to try him, and said unto him, What shall I do to inherit eternal life? and, Which of the commandments is greater, and has precedence in the law? Jesus said unto him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O 28 Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy thought, and with all thy 29, strength. This is the great and preeminent commandment. And the second, which is like it, is, Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself. And another commandment greater than these two there is not. On these two commandments, then, are hung the Arabic, law and the prophets. That scribe said unto him, Excellent! my Master; thou hast said truly that he is one, and there is no other outside of him: and that a man should love him with all his heart, and with all his thought, and with all his soul, and with all his strength, and that he should love his neighbour as himself, is better than all savours and sacrifices. And Jesus saw him that he had answered wisely; and he answered and said unto him, Thou art not far from the 35, kingdom of God. Thou hast: spoken rightly: do this, and thou shalt live. And he, as his desire was to justify himself, said unto him, And who is my neighbour? Jesus said unto him, A man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho; and the robbers fell upon him, and stripped him, and beat him, his life remaining in him but little, and went away. And it happened that there came down a certain priest that way; and he saw him, and passed by. And likewise a Levite also came and reached that place, and saw him, and passed by. And a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to the place where he was, and saw him, and had compassion on him, and came near, and bound up his strokes, and poured on them wine and oil; and he set him on the ass, and brought him to the inn, and expended his care upon him. And on the morrow of that day he took out two pence, and gave them to the innkeeper, and said unto him, Care for him; and if thou spendest upon him more, when I return, I shall give thee. Who of these three now, thinkest thou, is nearest to him that fell among the robbers? And he said unto him, He that had compas- Arabic, sion on him. Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou also likewise. And p. 132 no man dared afterwards to ask him anything.(Arabic Diatessaron 34)
The point is Stuart you might have good ideas but they aren't actually defined by the EVIDENCE we have from antiquity.
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:33 pm

Some other anomalies. Apparently Clement thinks Paul wrote a gospel "for, according to the apostle, "the law was given by Moses, grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (QDS 8)
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:01 pm

On this 'Alexandrian Matthew':
Origen says that Basilides wrote a Gospel (HomLk 1.2). Exactly what this may have been is unknown. The passages cited below show that he made use of Matthew's Gospel. Others have seen evidence of Luke's parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19–31) in a fragment preserved by Hegemonius. Basilides' followers were concerned about the chronology of Jesus' life, providing the day and month of his of his baptism and his death (Strom 1.21.146.1–4). This might suggest that Basilides' “Gospel” was something on the order of Tatian's Diatessaron, which tried to harmonize the four Gospels ... Eusebius cites a work by Agrippa Castor which refers to Basilides writing 24 books on “the gospel”.117 The use of the singular “gospel” might suggest that Basilides had produced a single Gospel from two or more of what later became the canonical Gospels and then produced a commentary in 24 books on this Gospel. https://books.google.com/books?id=cI8SD ... oQ6AEIKDAA
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:22 am

Another angle to investigate is the fact that 'marta' = lady, mistress in Aramaic (the feminine form of מר). What gospel would have made reference to an Aramaic title like that?
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by lsayre » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:01 pm

Secret Alias, I realize that this may sound like a broken record on my behalf, but I feel that your methods play us as pawns in a game with no objective. You really need to consider presenting us up front with your logically deduced supposition, and only after this moving to the assembly of the various puzzle pieces that led you to said supposition, rather than giving us puzzle pieces with no initial picture or guidance by which to objectively assemble them. Particularly when the puzzle pieces in this game have no clearly defined edges.

You must realize that we are not coming at this from your perspective, because we have been given no initial clue as to what your perspective is.

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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:23 pm

Ummm. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? 'We can't accept your position because you haven't told us what your position is ...' Isn't it possible that someone carrying out research DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE A 'POSITION' but rather just presents little pieces of evidence which help discount or minimize other arguments?

Let's start with -

1. Clement is our earliest witness to this story and
2. Clement is neither (a) using a canonical gospel and (b) responding to another non-canonical gospel while making his argument in QDS even though he refers to text (a) as 'Mark' and text (b) as 'Matthew.'

Clement had a proto-Mark and a proto-Matthew which oddly resembled so-called harmonized gospels. In the case of (a) it is inferred from the 'addition of lines' (from our inherited POV) from Matthew and Luke and in the case of (b) a harmonization of Matthew and Luke.

I don't know what this tells us other than

(i) the four canonical gospels do not look like the earliest sources for the stories contained in them and
(ii) the earliest gospels were 'harmonies' from our perspective

Other than that I have no theory.
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:32 pm

I guess another way of saying it is:

1. Clement never says in QDS he is citing from Luke
2. it makes little sense to think that he is arguing from Luke without explicitly citing Luke as he is arguing up until that point from an explicit comparison or reconciliation of gospels he calls 'Mark' and 'Matthew' - how and why would 'silent' citations of Luke make any sense?
3. the natural way of reading the material related to the 'question of the greatest commandment' in QDS is that it comes from a harmonized gospel of Matthew in the same way that the previous argumentation developed from an explicit citation of Clement's 'Mark' derives a harmonized gospel of Mark
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Re: How Do Luke and John Know About Mary and Martha?

Post by lsayre » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:38 pm

Clement is rather late, so on what basis do you surmise that his (presumed) harmonized gospel must pre-date the canonicals?

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