Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:51 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:11 am There is nothing of Middle Platonism in Paul, really. Middle Platonism is simply the wrong model by which to read Paul.
He does in 2 Corinthians 12.2 claim to have visited the third heaven; so the layers above the firmament do not fully represent Paul in that diagram, which I used solely for the purpose of coordinating heaven (in general), earth, and the nether regions.
I was thinking just to 2 Cor 12:2 as the more easy way to confute your ''strong'' claim (that Paul's cosmogony was different from the same cosmogony of Ascension of Isaiah, that is platonic, I think).
I do not think that the cosmology of the Ascension of Isaiah is Middle Platonic, either; and I do not think that any recension of the Ascension of Isaiah, lost or otherwise, posited a crucifixion "in the air" (in the sense that you mean that phrase).
I think that we can't ignore so easily the occurrence of the same construct (''extreme ends of the matter'' vel similia) in Julian about Attis's death's place.
Can you please quote the line from Julian which you have in mind?

The rest of your post can wait until I can consult the Greek of the text you are using.
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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But since this apparent heaven thus covers the head of Attis, is it proper to interpret the river Gallus as signifying the Gallaxy? For here a passive body is said to be mingled with the impassive circulation of the fifth body. And thus far the mother of the gods permitted this beautiful and intellectual god Attis, who is similar to the solar rays, to leap and dance. But when, in the course of his progression, he arrived at the extremity of things, the fable relates that he came into a cavern, and had connection with a nymph, obscurely signifying by this, the humid nature of matter; though indeed matter is not so much signified here, as that last incorporeal cause which presides over matter; for, according to Heraclitus,
"Death is the portion of the humid soul."
Such, then, is the intellectual god Gallus, i.e. a deity who contains in himself material and sublunary forms, and who associates with the cause presiding over the fluctuating nature of matter. But he does not associate with the nymph as one with another of the same dignity and rank, but after the manner of one falling into matter. Who then is the mother of the gods? She is indeed the fountain of the intellectual and demiurgic gods who govern the apparent series of things: or certainly a deity producing things, and at the same time subsisting with the mighty Jupiter; a goddess mighty, after one mighty, and conjoined with the mighty demiurgus of the world.
It's interesting when Julian says
:
though indeed matter is not so much signified here, as that last incorporeal cause which presides over matter;
Is the ''air'' what presides over ''matter'' ?

And then we have the following analogy of the pauline ''archontes of this age'' in the figure of a ''lion'' who provoked the castration of Attis precisely (it's beyond any doubt) in the ''lowest matter'':

But the fable, desirous to signify this, says, that the mother of the gods exhorted Attis to take care of himself, and neither depart any where else, nor be captivated with any other. but Attis, departing from the mother of the gods, descended even to the very extremity of matter. Hence, since it was necessary that infinity should, some time or other, be restrained and stop in its progression, Corybas, or the mighty sun, who has the same establishment as the mother of the gods, who fabricated, and providentially governs, all things in conjunction with her, and who performs nothing without her, persuaded the lion to announce the descent of Attis into the lowest matter. Who then is the lion? We are told for a certainty that he was yellow: he is therefore a cause presiding over a hot and fiery nature; which cause was hereafter to contend with a nymph and emulate her association with Attis.But who the nymph is, we have already explained: and the lion is said to be subservient to the demiurgic providence of things, i.e. without doubt, to the mother of the gods; and afterwards by his detecting and betraying Attis, to have been the cause of his castration.
Here I wonder if the ''lowest matter'' (of which above) coincides with the ''extreme bounded circumference of the universe'' touched by the ''solar god'' (probably not, since what marks the boundaries of the sublunar realm is the moon, not the Sun).
and, in the first place, it is necessary briefly to call to mind the account which we have given of Attis and his castration, and the meaning of the symbols which take place after his castration as far as to the hilaria, together with the intention of the sacred lustrations. Attis, then, has been said by us to be a certain cause and divinity who proximately fabricates the material world, and who, descending even to the extremity of things, is at length stopt by the demiurgic motion of the sun, when the solar god arrives at the extreme bounded circumference of the universe, and which, from its effect, is called the equinoctial circle. But we have said that castration is the restraining of infinity, which takes place no otherwise than by a revocation and emersion to a more antient and primary cause; but we consider the elevation of souls as the ultimate design of lustration.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/toj/toj04.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:30 am
But since this apparent heaven thus covers the head of Attis, is it proper to interpret the river Gallus as signifying the Gallaxy? For here a passive body is said to be mingled with the impassive circulation of the fifth body. And thus far the mother of the gods permitted this beautiful and intellectual god Attis, who is similar to the solar rays, to leap and dance. But when, in the course of his progression, he arrived at the extremity of things, the fable relates that he came into a cavern, and had connection with a nymph, obscurely signifying by this, the humid nature of matter; though indeed matter is not so much signified here, as that last incorporeal cause which presides over matter; for, according to Heraclitus,
"Death is the portion of the humid soul."
Such, then, is the intellectual god Gallus, i.e. a deity who contains in himself material and sublunary forms, and who associates with the cause presiding over the fluctuating nature of matter. But he does not associate with the nymph as one with another of the same dignity and rank, but after the manner of one falling into matter. Who then is the mother of the gods? She is indeed the fountain of the intellectual and demiurgic gods who govern the apparent series of things: or certainly a deity producing things, and at the same time subsisting with the mighty Jupiter; a goddess mighty, after one mighty, and conjoined with the mighty demiurgus of the world.
It's interesting when Julian says
:
though indeed matter is not so much signified here, as that last incorporeal cause which presides over matter;
Is the ''air'' what presides over ''matter'' ?
So here you are wondering whether air might be the incorporeal thing that presides over matter. But you had presented it as a fact that Julian regarded the extremes of matter as the air:
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:38 amCan I know what do you do about the fact that in Julian the 'extremes of the matter', as the place of the castration and death of Attis, is the region of ''air'' (a fact recognized even by GakuseiDon)?
So this cannot be the passage you had in mind. If you cannot find it, perhaps you could point me to wherever GakuseiDon writes about this fact. With any luck he will cite the passage in question.

The other passages you quoted are very interesting, especially that bit about the lion representing fire, but I still found nothing therein to specifically link the extremes of matter with the air.
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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For Doherty it's a fact (the outer space death of Attis) just thanks to Julian:
And what does this prove? That gods couldn't descend into the firmament and undergo suffering and death there? Hardly. Anyway, that's Ocellus. Were his particular views universal? This is a nicety, or semantic distinction of interpretation which is hardly going to lead any follower of a mystery cult (including Christianity) from deciding that Attis or Osiris or Christ couldn't have undergone death, burial and resurrection in the firmament. We don't even know if the Attis 'passion week' celebrations had Attis dying in the firmament, because no sources are that specific. We don't know if Osiris was 'buried' in the firmament because no sources are that specific. We don't know if Christ died for our sins and was buried in the firmament, because Paul and the others aren't that specific. But because of our understanding of the thought of the time, we can assume these specifics.

But the Ascension of Isaiah chapter 9 is that specific. The descending Son was hung on a tree by the god of that world (Satan). His identity is hidden from those spirits ("concealed from the heavens," the spirits who crucifiy him), not from humans. And the later Julian the Apostate was at least specific in bringing Attis down into the sublunary realm.
(my bold)
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/DebatesAscension.htm




Abut GDon, I remember that he said so in a forum discussion, but I see that in the his official review, he denies the outer space Death for Attis.

So GDon:
Doherty also refers to Sallustius' allegorical interpretation, which represented the myth of Attis as "timeless spiritual processes" (page 261).  Sallustius gives the myth as follows:
... they say that the Mother of the Gods seeing Attis lying by the river Gallus fell in love with him, took him, crowned him with her cap of stars, and thereafter kept him with her. He fell in love with a nymph and left the Mother to live with her. For this the Mother of the Gods made Attis go mad and cut off his genital organs and leave them with the nymph, and then return and dwell with her.
Sallustius then provides the interpretation:
Now the Mother of the Gods is the principle that generates life; that is why she is called Mother. Attis is the creator of all things which are born and die; that is why he is said to have been found by the river Gallus. For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which body subject to passion begins. Now as the primary gods make perfect the secondary, the Mother loves Attis and gives him celestial powers. That is what the cap means. Attis loves a nymph: the nymphs preside over generation, since all that is generated is fluid. But since the process of generation must be stopped somewhere, and not allowed to generate something worse than the worst, the creator who makes these things casts away his generative powers into the creation and is joined to the Gods again. Now these things never happened, but always are.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseid ... view4.html

Can you explain where these things happened forever according to Sallustius, under the assumption that these things never happened on the earth ?

Sallustius is clear where the castration of Attis (and his Death) begins:
For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which body subject to passion begins
Here you have an outer space term that is an outer space term still today: the Milky Way. Isn't it?


Sallustius is sufficient evidence to do the point about Attis, I think. He died in the ''air''. And the ''air'' == ''lowest matter''.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:16 am For Doherty it's a fact (the outer space death of Attis) just thanks to Julian....

....

About GDon, I remember that he said so in a forum discussion, but I see that in the his official review, he denies the outer space Death for Attis.

So GDon:
Doherty also refers to Sallustius' allegorical interpretation, which represented the myth of Attis as "timeless spiritual processes" (page 261).  Sallustius gives the myth as follows:
... they say that the Mother of the Gods seeing Attis lying by the river Gallus fell in love with him, took him, crowned him with her cap of stars, and thereafter kept him with her. He fell in love with a nymph and left the Mother to live with her. For this the Mother of the Gods made Attis go mad and cut off his genital organs and leave them with the nymph, and then return and dwell with her.
Sallustius then provides the interpretation:
Now the Mother of the Gods is the principle that generates life; that is why she is called Mother. Attis is the creator of all things which are born and die; that is why he is said to have been found by the river Gallus. For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which body subject to passion begins. Now as the primary gods make perfect the secondary, the Mother loves Attis and gives him celestial powers. That is what the cap means. Attis loves a nymph: the nymphs preside over generation, since all that is generated is fluid. But since the process of generation must be stopped somewhere, and not allowed to generate something worse than the worst, the creator who makes these things casts away his generative powers into the creation and is joined to the Gods again. Now these things never happened, but always are.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseid ... view4.html
Giuseppe, I have read most of the texts we are talking about here, but it has been a long time since, and I was not reading them originally with these specific issues in mind, anyway. I could easily be wrong or ignorant about them.

You come at these texts with this ridiculously fierce certainty...:
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:18 am...you have that very probably, the ''the lower, earthly regions'' are equivalent to the region of the ''air'', the same place where Osiris was killed (beyond any doubt).
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:51 amIf you mean the construct to mean ''the extreme parts of the sublunar realm'' (the sublunar realm being heart + air as the only 2 things below the moon) - and surely the definition is right, since the ''matter'', as by definition what is changeable, is the sublunar realm - then surely the ''extreme parts of the sublunar realm'' are not the known earthly regions (these are in the middle of the matter), but the boundaries of ''air'' of that realm.
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:30 amAnd then we have the following analogy of the pauline ''archontes of this age'' in the figure of a ''lion'' who provoked the castration of Attis precisely (it's beyond any doubt) in the ''lowest matter''....
...yet every time I check up on one of these "beyond any doubt" or "surely" claims of yours, it turns out that there is nothing sure or beyond doubt about it in any way, at least not so far as the quotations you give are concerned. I do not think that my "every time" there is an exaggeration, either; at least, I cannot think of an exception.

Then there was the time when you showed me an "authoritative" source for one of your claims...:
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:35 pmThis source seems very authoritative:

NAME & SYMBOLS
'Nephthys' is the Latin version of her Egyptian name `Nebthwt' (also given as Nebet-het and Nebt-het) which translates as "Lady of the Temple Enclosure" or "Mistress of the House" and she is routinely pictured with the heiroglyph for 'house' on her crown. The 'house' is neither an earthly home nor temple but linked to the heavens as she was related to air and ether
https://www.google.it/amp/s/www.ancient.eu/amp/1-14470/
...and of course it was a web article written by a journalist, with no footnotes or endnotes or anything remotely scholarly about it. What does "authoritative" even mean in such a context?

I almost always read your postings on this forum because sometimes you can come up with something very insightful or probing, some viewpoint I had not considered or some farflung text I had not factored in, which I appreciate. But to actually exchange thoughts with you on the forum can be a painful experience, precisely because your assertions are often all bluff and bluster with little substance behind them.

I would love it if you could up your game a bit, back off of the meaninglessly overconfident assertions, quote from your source text immediately (instead of waiting for me to ask you for it), and try to view things from different angles rather than forcing them into the preformed mold of your highly specific brand of mythicist bias.
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

Post by Giuseppe »

I accept your criticism, Ben. You are basically right about my postings. Excuse my disturbing (and surely interested) insistence.

I say only a last thing (for the moment). I have always read the construct ''the lowest matter'' as the lowest levels of the air.

Surely (you would agree) it is there - in the ''lowest matter'' - where Osiris and Attis died.

But for you the ''lowest matter'' is exclusively the Hades or the Sheol. And you seem to ignore the (Jewish and Greek) evidence (even by Plutarch himself) that puts the Hades in the ''air''.

I don't understand:

1) why do you think (with equal probability to the idea of an only Sheol's death) that the Hades or Sheol was only the place where Jesus went to, but after the his Death on the earth. At least, it has to be recognized that the author of Ephesians mentions where Jesus died: in the ''lowest matter''.

2) frankly, the discussion started when I said that the ''extreme boundaries of the earth'' are the ''air'', since the ''earth'' is surrounded by ''air'' and only ''air''. Surely Prometheus was crucified ''in the remotest parts of the land'', since the Caucasus is very far from the Greece. In any case, this evidence is in support of mythicism.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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