Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:52 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:44 pmJulian called the place of the death of Attis ''the extreme ends of the earth'', if I remember well. Do you think that the term is not sufficient?
I am responding to this without looking up the citation. But ''the extreme ends of the earth'' would be on the earth, of course, just as "the extreme ends of the table" would be on the table.
I'm not so sure:
But the fable, desirous to signify this, says, that the mother of the gods exhorted Attis to take care of himself, and neither depart any where else, nor be captivated with any other. but Attis, departing from the mother of the gods, descended even to the very extremity of matter.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/toj/toj04.htm
But where Typhon falls in and touches upon her extreme parts, [...] For which reason the fable makes Typhon to be married to Nephthys, and Osiris to have accompanied with her by stealth. For the utmost and most extreme parts of matter, which they call Nephthys and the end, is mostly under the power of the destructive faculty;
(Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, 59)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:00 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:52 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:44 pmJulian called the place of the death of Attis ''the extreme ends of the earth'', if I remember well. Do you think that the term is not sufficient?
I am responding to this without looking up the citation. But ''the extreme ends of the earth'' would be on the earth, of course, just as "the extreme ends of the table" would be on the table.
I'm not so sure:
But the fable, desirous to signify this, says, that the mother of the gods exhorted Attis to take care of himself, and neither depart any where else, nor be captivated with any other. but Attis, departing from the mother of the gods, descended even to the very extremity of matter.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/toj/toj04.htm
That is not the same phrase.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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Why not?

Matter=earth.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:01 am Why not?

Matter=earth.
Here is the line in Greek; I just looked it up: Ὁ δὲ προῆλθεν ἄχρι τῶν ἐσχάτων τῆς ὕλης κατελθών. Now, what is your point about Attis, the earth, and the sublunar realm (the meaning of which has been sorely abused in some circles)?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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For me, to say that Attis went to "a very far place" (far from the POV of who writes) is equivalent to say that Attis went to the region between the earth and the moon, often called "air".
So, if Jesus went to the "lower, earthly regions":

This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
(Ephesians 4:8-10)

...he was going to the same place where Attis went to: in the "air".

I confess that I have always loved Ephesians as a real mythicist epistle. A true sin it's a forgery :(
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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The verse 9:

τὸ δὲ Ἀνέβη τί ἐστιν εἰ μὴ ὅτι καὶ κατέβη εἰς τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς

uses a similar expression to:

Ὁ δὲ προῆλθεν ἄχρι τῶν ἐσχάτων τῆς ὕλης κατελθών.

1) Do you agree that the same place is meant?

2) Do you recognize that place as the region of the "air"?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:19 am For me, to say that Attis went to "a very far place" (far from the POV of who writes) is equivalent to say that Attis went to the region between the earth and the moon, often called "air".
The word is just ἔσχατος. Why do you think it has to mean the air? It appears to me that you are reading your own pet view into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself.
This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
(Ephesians 4:8-10)

...he was going to the same place where Attis went to: in the "air".
How do you know? Why must "earthly regions" mean "air" to you? Does κατώτερος μέρος τῆς γῆς specifically mean the "air" somewhere else? Why can it not mean ἐπίγειος or καταχθόνιος (Philippians 2.10)?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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1) At this point there is the answer to your question in the following passage:
But where Typhon falls in and touches upon her extreme parts, [...] For which reason the fable makes Typhon to be married to Nephthys, and Osiris to have accompanied with her by stealth. For the utmost and most extreme parts of matter, which they call Nephthys and the end, is mostly under the power of the destructive faculty;
(Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, 59)

There is no doubt that the 'air' is meant as the place of the death of Osiris by Seth.

2) I see that you are already conceding to me this identity/similarity of construct:

κατώτερος μέρος τῆς γῆς = τῶν ἐσχάτων τῆς ὕλης

3) and so, in virtue of points 1 and 2, since there is the clear identity/similarity of construct:

''the utmost and most extreme parts of matter'' (Plutarch) == κατώτερος μέρος τῆς γῆς (Julian) == τῶν ἐσχάτων τῆς ὕλης (Ephesians)

...you have that very probably, the ''the lower, earthly regions'' are equivalent to the region of the ''air'', the same place where Osiris was killed (beyond any doubt).

CONCLUSION:
the author of Ephesians placed the crucifixion of Jesus in the region of ''air''.

Ergo Paul, also.

Ergo the Pillars, also.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:18 am(Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, 59)

There is no doubt that the 'air' is meant as the place of the death of Osiris by Seth.
Can you cite the specific passages which entail this being beyond doubt? Thanks.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

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For the utmost and most extreme parts of matter, which they call Nephthys and the end, is mostly under the power of the destructive faculty;
(Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, 59)

This source seems very authoritative:


NAME & SYMBOLS
'Nephthys' is the Latin version of her Egyptian name `Nebthwt' (also given as Nebet-het and Nebt-het) which translates as "Lady of the Temple Enclosure" or "Mistress of the House" and she is routinely pictured with the heiroglyph for 'house' on her crown. The 'house' is neither an earthly home nor temple but linked to the heavens as she was related to air and ether
https://www.google.it/amp/s/www.ancient.eu/amp/1-14470/
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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