Carrier and Couchoud about Revelation 13:8

[Ben C. Smith]

But given the fact that:

1) Nephtys has to be associated with some place.

This is incorrect. Plutarch is at pains to disassociate the mythical figures from the natural elements. Why would Nephthys be the exception?

[Giuseppe]

But given the fact that:

1) Nephtys has to be associated with some place.

This is incorrect. Plutarch is at pains to disassociate the mythical figures from the natural elements. Why would Nephthys be the exception?

Even if you are correct about the Plutarch's intentions (I'm not sure at the moment), his words are still evidence of the (relatively) popular belief that Osiris died in the "extreme parts of the matter". Where did they localize that place ?

Surely it's a mythological place.

So, how do you interpret the Ephesians passage?

[Ben C. Smith]

But given the fact that:

1) Nephtys has to be associated with some place.

This is incorrect. Plutarch is at pains to disassociate the mythical figures from the natural elements. Why would Nephthys be the exception?

Even if you are correct about the Plutarch's intentions (I'm not sure at the moment), his words are still evidence of the (relatively) popular belief that Osiris died in the "extreme parts of the matter". Where did they localize that place ?

Surely it's a mythological place.

For Plutarch, so far as I can see, it is a concept, a principle: like order or chaos. Not a place.

So, how do you interpret the Ephesians passage?

Are you talking about Ephesians 4.8-9?

[Giuseppe]

Are you talking about Ephesians 4.8-9?

yes.

[Ben C. Smith]

Are you talking about Ephesians 4.8-9?

yes.

Hebrew Cosmos.png (284.42 KiB) Viewed 5342 times

The journey of our hero(ine) begins either in heaven (1A) or on earth (1B). Our hero(ine) descends into the nether realm; on the diagram I have this as Sheol, but it could also be the Abyss. Our hero(ine) dies in the nether realm (2) and remains dead there for a period of time: 3 days are not unheard of in this context. Then our hero(ine) is resurrected, resuscitated, or otherwise revived, after which s/he ascends to the heavens (3):

Ephesians 4.7-10: 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says, "When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

Romans 10.6-7: 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or, 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

1 Peter 3.18-20: 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Martyrdom of Isaiah 4.21: 21 And the descent of the Beloved into Sheol, behold, it is written in the section, where the Lord says: "Behold my Son will understand." And all these things, behold they are written in the parables of David, the son of Jesse, and in the Proverbs of Solomon his son, and in the words of Korah, and Ethan the Israelite, and in the words of Asaph, and in the rest of the Psalms also which the angel of the Spirit inspired.

Ascension of Isaiah 10.8: 8 Go forth and descend through all the heavens, and you will descend to the firmament and that world: to the angel in Sheol you will descend, but to Haguel you will not go.

Ba'al and Môt: "Now surely, indeed, you must descend into the throat of Divine Môt, El's son, Death, into the watery pit of the Beloved of El, Ghazir, the Hero!" .... He lifts his voice and cries, "Ba'al is dead! What will become of the people? Dagon's Son gone! What of the multitudes? In Ba'al's place I will go down into the earth."

The Descent of Inana: From the great heaven she set her mind on the great below. .... Inana abandoned heaven, abandoned earth, and descended to the nether world. .... Inana travelled towards the nether world. Her minister Ninsubura travelled behind her. Holy Inana said to Ninsubura: ".... On this day I will descend to the nether world. When I have arrived in the nether world, make a lament for me on the ruin mounds. .... Father Enki, the lord of great wisdom, knows about the life-giving plant and the life-giving water. He is the one who will restore me to life. .... Go now, my Ninsubura, and pay attention. Don’t neglect the instructions I gave you." [Inana now passes through the seven gates of the nether world, arrives, and is slain.] .... After three days and three nights had passed, her minister Ninsubura carried out the instructions of her mistress. .... After Inana had ascended from the nether world, Ninsubura threw herself at her feet at the door of the Ganzer. She had sat in the dust and clothed herself in a filthy garment.

The details vary from myth to myth, but the overall story arch is a descent to the nether realm followed by an ascent to heaven. Earth (where humans live) is sometimes a stop along the way, sometimes not.

It is possible (to my mind, anyway) that in the Ascension of Isaiah the original story had the Beloved passing through the human world just as he passed through the heavens: in disguise, and on his way down, to be slain in Sheol; later the human realm became the venue for the death, after which the descent to Sheol was completed; in both cases the descent to Sheol was the most important thing. This text separates Sheol from the deeper pit of eternal suffering (compare how Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20.14), called Haguel here.

Sheol and the Abyss are not necessarily the same thing, the former being more closely associated with the earth, the latter with the ocean (notice how the nether world in the story of Ba'al and Môt is watery); but both are considered deep places, located under the surface of the earth.

The story fragment in 1 Peter is not easy to interpret, but it almost certainly derives from the story of the Watchers in 1 Enoch, in which the place punishment is under the earth, or in the deep valleys of the earth:

1 Enoch: .... Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire. .... And the Lord said unto Michael: "Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is 13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. ....

Notice the same two-step punishment as in Revelation 20.14 (Hades and the Lake of Fire) and in the Ascension of Isaiah (Sheol and Haguel): for now the spirits suffer under the earth, and at the great judgment they will be thrown into the eternal flames.

Both the passage in Romans and the passage in Ephesians speak of the area underneath the earth, as is specified in Ephesians 4.9 ("the lower parts of the earth") and implied by the term "abyss" in Romans 10.7. Philippians 2.10 gives us the same basic cosmological structure: heaven, earth, and subterranean areas.

[Giuseppe]

Oh, but in this way you give up entirely to the platonic view of the universe for Paul (the famous 'sublunar realm' etc).

Can I know what do you do about the fact that in Julian the 'extremes of the matter', as the place of the castration and death of Attis, is the region of ''air'' (a fact recognized even by GakuseiDon) ?

Do you ignore that evidence only because Julian is not from I CE ?

[archibald]

Hebrew Cosmos.png

Love that diagram.

Did they, do we think, see the firmament and heaven as domed/arched? That would make sense, given that the firmament appears to the eye to meet the earth at the horizon. I suppose the alternative is a series of layers above (and parallel to) the 'flat' earth.

Did they think of mountains as partly supporting the sky, or were there also invisible pillars? And what were the 'windows' in the firmament? Not stars, I'm thinking, since those are labelled separately.

Tangentially, I wonder what they thought of that other arched-and-touching-the-earth phenomenon, the rather awesome rainbow. Were there no rainbows in that climate? Have I missed the references to them? Rainbows would surely have stimulated the ancient superstitious imagination, one would think. Here, we dreamt up Leprechauns and pots of gold.

I could also chime in that other upper realms (doesn't the text say 'Paul' ascended to the 3rd one?) don't seem to be represented in the diagram. Perhaps you think that was non-Hebrew cosmology, at that time?

[Ben C. Smith]

Can I know what do you do about the fact that in Julian the 'extremes of the matter', as the place of the castration and death of Attis, is the region of ''air'' (a fact recognized even by GakuseiDon)?

Do you ignore that evidence only because Julian is not from I CE ?

Middle Platonism existed alongside other, older conceptions of the cosmos. Different people adhered to different models.

There is nothing of Middle Platonism in Paul, really. Middle Platonism is simply the wrong model by which to read Paul.

[Ben C. Smith]

Hebrew Cosmos.png

Love that diagram.

Did they, do we think, see the firmament and heaven as domed/arched? That would make sense, given that the firmament appears to the eye to meet the earth at the horizon. I suppose the alternative is a series of layers above (and parallel to) the 'flat' earth.

I think they thought of heaven (along with the firmament which served as its barrier) was a dome, yes. I think I have read texts in which the dome is what makes sense of what is being said; but it has been a long time.

Did they think of mountains as partly supporting the sky, or were there also invisible pillars? And what were the 'windows' in the firmament? Not stars, I'm thinking, since those are labelled separately.

Conceptions of the pillars probably varied. But the "pillars of heaven" were a concept (Job 26.11), whether idealized or thought of as very real. They may have been the high mountains.

Tangentially, I wonder what they thought of that other arched-and-touching-the-earth phenomenon, the rather awesome rainbow. Were there no rainbows in that climate? Have I missed the references to them? Rainbows would surely have stimulated the ancient superstitious imagination, one would think. Here, we dreamt up Leprechauns and pots of gold.

I honestly do not know. I have never investigated ancient rainbows.

I could also chime in that other upper realms (doesn't the text say 'Paul' ascended to the 3rd one?) don't seem to be represented in the diagram. Perhaps you think that was non-Hebrew cosmology, at that time?

The concept of three heavens (and of seven heavens, and of multiple heavens beyond that) developed later than the Hebrew scriptural concepts, I think. I stole that diagram from online (there are rather many others out there mapping out the Hebrew cosmology), but did not intend it to encompass everything that Paul thought about the cosmos. He does in 2 Corinthians 12.2 claim to have visited the third heaven; so the layers above the firmament do not fully represent Paul in that diagram, which I used solely for the purpose of coordinating heaven (in general), earth, and the nether regions.

[Giuseppe]

There is nothing of Middle Platonism in Paul, really. Middle Platonism is simply the wrong model by which to read Paul.

He does in 2 Corinthians 12.2 claim to have visited the third heaven; so the layers above the firmament do not fully represent Paul in that diagram, which I used solely for the purpose of coordinating heaven (in general), earth, and the nether regions.

I was thinking just to 2 Cor 12:2 as the more easy way to confute your ''strong'' claim (that Paul's cosmogony was different from the same cosmogony of Ascension of Isaiah, that is platonic, I think).

I think that we can't ignore so easily the occurrence of the same construct (''extreme ends of the matter'' vel similia) in Julian about Attis's death's place.

I see that you point out the fact that the construct ''sublunar realm'' can't allow the distinction between the region of air and the earth.

But you are the same guy who claims that the ''extreme parts of the earth'' is still ''earth'' and can't mean another thing. ''Therefore'' - here is the fallacy - the ''extreme parts of the earth'' are equivalent to ''earth''.

If you mean the construct to mean ''the extreme parts of the sublunar realm'' (the sublunar realm being heart + air as the only 2 things below the moon) - and surely the definition is right, since the ''matter'', as by definition what is changeable, is the sublunar realm - then surely the ''extreme parts of the sublunar realm'' are not the known earthly regions (these are in the middle of the matter), but the boundaries of ''air'' of that realm.