Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

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Giuseppe
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Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:52 am

So Mcn reconstructed by Couchoud:
He went out as was his custom
To the Mount of Olives.
The disciples also followed him.
Having come to a place, he said to them,
Pray that you may not enter into Trial.
He went apart from them
About a stone's throw.
Kneeling down, he prayed, saying,
Father, let not my will be done, but thine;
If thou willst take away this Cup from me.
Having risen from his prayer,
He came to his disciples. * He found them asleep.
He said to them, You sleep!
Rise and pray
That you may not come to Trial.


This is the last request in the prayer Jesus taught them (xi. 4). The cup into which his blood will be poured (22:20). Jesus here sets an example to Christians not to seek Trials, but to pray that they may be spared them. Having neglected this prayer Peter, the first, will fail in the Trial.
(The Creation of Christ, p. 420-421 my bold)

Peter ignored the meaning of the prayer, being otherwise ready to receive persecution in order to prove his allegiance to Christ and his supremacy among the other apostles (etiamsi omnes, ego non) .

A strong indication that Mark didn't like this antithesis (fear of Jesus versus audacity of Peter) is proved by the fact that Mark introduced only a word, Abbà, in the prayer of Jesus:
35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
(Mark 14:35-36)

In this way, the antithesis ceases to be

'fear of Jesus versus audacity of Peter'

...to become rather (part of) the antithesis:

'innocence of Jesus versus guilty of Barabbas''.

Now Barabbas will be spared the first Trial, differently from Jesus.

In this way the point of Mark is that the persecutions must be sought (as Jesus) and not escaped (as Barabbas).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:17 am

Why didn't Mark like the antithesis marcionite between the audacity of Peter and the reluctance of Jesus? Because in the theology of Mark the only way Jesus has to make him recognized is the extreme suffering on the Cross (remember the centurion: "Really this man is Son of God!"). Therefore a Jesus who doesn't want to suffer is a Jesus who wants to remain unknown (as Son of the Alien God?). This is too much even for the so-called Messanic Secret of Mark!
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:57 am

Of what value is taking a modern reconstruction and giving it precedence and preferring it to ACTUAL EVIDENCE FROM ANTIQUITY. I come to this forum to watch mental illness at work. Not just from you Giuseppe but in truth most often from you.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:09 am

Just to make it clearer for you. There is what I would call 'category 1' evidence viz. actual manuscripts of the gospels and then 'category 2' explicit decisive evidence of references to readings from gospels in other ancient manuscripts and then 'category 3' evidence 'reconstructed' by scholars from ancient witnesses but not explicit, reliable, etc. What you are citing is something in 'category 3' attempting to understand 'category 1' evidence. Not a good approach. There is no 'gospel of Marcion' to speak of. Just dozens of worthless IMHO reconstructions.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:16 am

Basically if your argument was a formula you'd be saying:

IF Couchoud's reconstruction of a certain 'gospel of Marcion' is correct THEN is it correct to say X about the gospel of Mark?

The IF is a big IF and one that is so uncertain the THEN is 'who cares'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:01 am

It is true that I am based on my hero Couchoud in this moment, but this is why I see more and more that prof Vinzent isn't saying nothing of different from what Couchoud said about Marcion as writer of the Earliest Gospel (Therefore their reconstructions of Mcn are probably very much similar). Do you know that prof Vinzent is been confuted?
If you answer YES then you are giving of the fool to not only Vinzent but also to Klinghardt (something that is not probable).
If you answer NO then why can't I speculate about the results of their research?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:19 am

Yes but so what THERE IS NO ACTUAL DIRECT OR INDIRECT EVIDENCE for the reading in question. It's just a supposition or a hunch. You can't start using this sort of marginalia to develop theories about why Mark is the way it is. Marcionite studies should not be taken very seriously. There seems to be a thing called 'Marcion' or things called 'Marcionite' but the evidence for what this is or isn't is extremely weak. The humanities equivalent of 'telekinetic powers' or ESP. Not to be taken very seriously.

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:29 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:19 am
Marcionite studies should not be taken very seriously.
I would say this about the source "Q" but not about the Gospel of a guy named Marcion. Both were real.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:34 am

This is what makes the forum so intolerable at times - people who can't see the difference between evidence and interpretation. Funny how Jesus is certainly a 'myth' but Marcion is 'real' for you. Marcion might be real - it's possible but not certain. But the issue at hand isn't the existence of Marcion or the Marcionite gospel but the scholarly reconstructions of that gospel which are certainly not 'real' - in the sense of things to be taken as equal value to actual manuscript evidence from antiquity - nor to be mistaken for evidence of anything other than the limitlessness of human imagination. Scholarly reconstructions of the Marcionite gospel are at best an academic parlor game at worst the precursors for the DaVinci Code.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Vicenza (Italy)

Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:50 am

How can you remove my sound suspect that you say so because it is more convenient for you that the recostruction of Mcn is impossible so that all can say all about Marcion and Marcionites (and especially you)?

I can't believe that Klinghardt and Vinzent are fool people and not whorty of being read, because THAT is what your say saying substantially.

My only reason in this moment to think that you may be right is that these two scolars (especially the former) are historicists.

Too much not sufficient, don't believe?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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