Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

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Secret Alias
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:02 am

But I don't think that any of my thoughts about Marcion should be taken as canonical law to develop an understanding of how this or that ACTUAL THING viz. the gospel of Mark arose. They're just thoughts, observations, beliefs but not actual evidence. I am not here to insult scholars nevertheless nothing which could be said about Marcion or his gospel should be taken very seriously because THERE IS NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE WHICH MEETS THE STANDARD OF RELIABILITY OR CERTAINTY. It's that simple. Marcion operates on a level very close to that of Simon flying in the Roman forum or the various sex orgies of the heresies. It's not real enough to be taken as evidence for anything other than the limitless imagination (or gullibility) of certain scholars and their devotees. The piecing together of the gospel is not an exact science because the evidence is well --- shit or at least very shitty.
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:08 am

Let me rephrase your original question:

Can the uncertain gospel of Marcion re-constructed in the subjective estimation of Couchoud have caused this or that in the gospel of Mark?

Doesn't sound very good that way does it?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:10 am

And remember that Origen's interpretation of "let this cup pass from me" is entirely positive - viz. he prays that more martyrs drink from the cup. This was surely the Marcionite interpretation - viz. 'many more martyrs' IF - and this is a big IF - this passage was in the Marcionite gospel assuming of course there was a separate Marcionite gospel.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:12 am

Another good way to proceed in IMHO is to round up all the interpretations of a given passage and see which seems 'most Marcionite-like' and add this to the mix. Of course you have to have read or be 'fluent' in all the early interpretations of the gospel and not just read 19th century speculative reconstructions of this or that (i.e. making other eccentric people do the hard work for you). My advice is read, read, read primary source material from antiquity. The more the better.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:44 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:52 am
A strong indication that Mark didn't like this antithesis (fear of Jesus versus audacity of Peter) is proved by the fact that Mark introduced only a word, Abbà, in the prayer of Jesus:
Just for the record, it seems that "Abba" is attested for the Marcionite epistle to the Galatians 4:6. (The current Marcion-hype looks sometimes like a blind hamster on crack)
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:12 am
Galatians 4.1-31.

1 Λέγω δέ, ἐφ’ ὅσον χρόνον ὁ κληρονόμος νήπιός ἐστιν, οὐδὲν διαφέρει δούλου κύριος πάντων ὤν, 2 ἀλλὰ ὑπὸ ἐπιτρόπους ἐστὶν καὶ οἰκονόμους ἄχρι τῆς προθεσμίας τοῦ πατρός. [Marcion locates Galatians 3.15a at this point] 15a Ἀδελφοί, κατὰ ἄνθρωπον λέγω. [Marcion now returns to Galatians 4] 3 οὕτως καὶ ἡμεῖς, ὅτε ἦμεν νήπιοι, ὑπὸ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου ἤμεθα δεδουλωμένοι· 4 ὅτε δὲ ἦλθεν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ χρόνου, ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν Υἱὸν αὐτοῦ, γενόμενον ἐκ γυναικός, γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον, 5 ἵνα τοὺς ὑπὸ νόμον ἐξαγοράσῃ, ἵνα τὴν υἱοθεσίαν ἀπολάβωμεν. 6 Ὅτι δέ ἐστε υἱοί, ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸ Πνεῦμα τοῦ Υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὰς καρδίας ἡμῶν, κρᾶζον Ἀββᾶ ὁ Πατήρ. [Criterion 1 weakly, criterion 4:] 1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a bondservant, though he is lord of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father. [Marcion locates Galatians 3.15a at this point] 15a Brothers, I am speaking in human terms. [Marcion now returns to Galatians 4] 3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, [criterion 3:] born to a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of children. 6 And because you are God's children, God [Marcion: he] sent out the [Marcion: his] Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”


Tertullian, Against Marcion 5.4.1-6: [4] Et ipse enim lux erit nationum, et in nomine eius nationes sperabunt. Itaque ut certum esset nos filios dei esse, misit spiritum suum in corda nostra, clamantem: Abba, pater. In novissimis enim, inquit, diebus effundam de meo spiritu in omnem carnem. Cuius gratia, nisi cuius et promissio gratiae? /

[4] For He is to be "the light of the Gentiles," and "in His name shall the Gentiles trust." That we may have, therefore the assurance that we are the children of God, "He hath sent forth His Spirit into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father." For "in the last days," saith He," I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Now, from whom comes this grace, but from Him who proclaimed the promise thereof?


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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:53 pm

And KK's example perfectly illustrates how stupid this 'discovering Marcion's NT' is - where is the evidence for this? It's not there.
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:36 am

This is a good occasion to call the Theorem of Bayes of Carrierian memory, here.


I think that there are some items that are too much evident to be ignored:

1) all know the theology of Marcion and that that theology had created a successful religion
2) all know that one of the principal features of the Gospel Jesus is the ''newness'' and ''surprise'' of the his preaching
3) all know that the Gospels are full of anti-Judaism
4) all know that the Gospels certainly do not shine of a good understanding of the true identity of Jesus by the people with whom he had to deal.

Given these items, the probabilities a priori that, if there was a Gospel of Marcion, that reconstructed by Couchoud and Vinzent and (partially) by Klinghart is very probably the more similar to the original, are simply very much high.

Indeed, they are so high
that in order to prove the contrary, Secret Alias has to show a very strong, very strong case a posteriori that the 4 items above are fruit of the mere hallucination à la Wikipedia.

Since he hasn't shown this strong case of the contrary a posteriori, then Bayes gives reason to me.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:07 am

But even this is too broad and sweeping:
1) all know the theology of Marcion and that that theology had created a successful religion
2) all know that one of the principal features of the Gospel Jesus is the ''newness'' and ''surprise'' of the his preaching
3) all know that the Gospels are full of anti-Judaism
4) all know that the Gospels certainly do not shine of a good understanding of the true identity of Jesus by the people with whom he had to deal.
Let's start with (1). I would rephrase this to:
there are frequent reports about the theology of Marcion and it seems to have been very influential
But again these aren't independent reports. Basically our main sources are:

Justin
Irenaeus
Tertullian

There are other that are reported in Eusebius. Clement makes reference to Marcion as well as Origen. It is said that various people wrote treatises Against Marcion but we don't have those reports. What we have basically is:

Justin writing the barest of statements about Marcion (twice)
Irenaeus saying 'I agree with Justin' and citing Justin as a witness as well as Polycarp but we have no direct evidence from Polycarp about Marcion
Tertullian who used Irenaeus as a source for books 4 and 5 with Book 4 probably being Tertullian copying out and modifying in Latin an original Greek treatise of Irenaeus's working of Justin's lost treatise which may or may not have been written specifically against Marcion.

I don't see that evidence as a very compelling source of information about Marcion, his theology and its success. Yes there seems to have been something or someone called 'Marcion' and various communities tied to his or her beliefs. But isn't that also true about Simon Magus? In fact there are great differences reported between 'Marcion' and his followers on virtually every issue. How can he or she be said to have been 'successful' when - being such a purported stickler for exactness - all sorts of mutations of his doctrine allegedly are being manifested?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:11 am

all know that one of the principal features of the Gospel Jesus is the ''newness'' and ''surprise'' of the his preaching
Yes but surely some of this 'surprise' is owing to presumption - on the part of our sources - that the apostolic doctrine was well established at the time of Marcion's 'appearance' in the second century. So if you have this claim that the apostles who knew Jesus believed one thing and Marcion was preaching another, of course his 'newness' would have to be stressed. In fact a lot of this emphasis on 'newness' derives as a direct result of Celsus's line of attack. Celsus says there was from the beginning a 'true Word' and Christianity wasn't it. A lot of Celsus's attack focuses on Marcionite-like doctrines. So clearly the contemporary Church Fathers (as we see with Origen) say 'oh yes, that's Marcion but Marcion isn't Christian' we believe in X and Y and Z. Don't know if Marcion himself stressed 'newness' per se. Again there is little direct evidence for anything to do with Marcion. If you think Celsus argument was faithful to the stated position of Christianity in the period which happened to be overwhelmingly Marcionite then yes there is something to it. But is Celsus making the evidence fit his argument to a degree - i.e. over-emphasizing the 'newness.' I suppose there would also be a little of that too.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Did Mark introduce 'Abbà' against Marcion?

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:22 am

all know that the Gospels are full of anti-Judaism
I am not sure of that. To be certain by the time of Irenaeus Judaism was understood to be a 'fully monarchian' religion at least according to the Church Fathers like Irenaeus. But this idealized form of Judaism is highly idealistic. Were any of the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus strict monotheists or monarchian in their outlook? This is never really explained. In a sense I guess Acts has Saul apprentice to a 'good Jew' but did the Church Fathers think there was a 'good Jewish tradition' at the time of Jesus. Again this is very murky and demonstrates that these positions that come about Marcion regarding his opposition to Judaism, the Law and the prophets have very little actual evidence or explanation.

The Jews were sacrificing in the period when Jesus was on the earth and sacrifices are bad according to Christians. God didn't want them. Were there 'good Jews' - men of the Sanhedrin - actively trying to prevent sacrifices even according to the propaganda of the Church Fathers? No. So in what sense were they 'good'? Basically the sense one gets from the early sources is that the knowledge of Judaism at the time of Jesus among the Church Fathers is basically restricted to the almost caricature-like references in the gospel. So when Church Fathers write about the Sadducees they basically mouth the statement about them not believing in the resurrection and the like.

To this end I can't see any real evidence again coming forward regarding 'the Jews' what was good about them, what was bad about them other than in some sense they were 'truer' or better than the pagans because they believed in one God albeit imperfectly. But the important thing to see is that there isn't any real 'tradition' emerging from the Church Fathers as to what was wrong with the Jews, why Jesus opposed them other than the 'examples' provided in the gospel. But surely if the Church Fathers were part of an apostolic community which actually existed since the time of Jesus's visitation there would be traditions based on more than literary examples. There aren't because the book is all that they ever had.

Now with the Marcionites - whatever they were - there seems to be a better sense of what the controversy was between the Jews and Jesus. Not necessarily because they represented a tradition which dated back to an apostolic community. No the furthest thing from it. The heretics seemed to be privy to some oral tradition (see Irenaeus) which knew the correct context not only to the various statements in the gospel but the other Pauline writings. I see no evidence from the little evidence available to us that the heretics started with the assumption that the Jews were monotheists or monarchian in their outlook. That's just assumed because we see the Marcionites through the lens of the Church Fathers. But again there is no evidence that Marcionites assumed the Jews only believed in one god or only knew of one God. Again it's hard to be so certain what is up and what is down here.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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