Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

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andrewcriddle
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Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by andrewcriddle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:41 am

I find the following argument interesting, but I'm not sure how strong it is.

There is a deliberate parallelism and contrast between Luke 1:41-45
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”
and Luke 11:27-28
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
In all probability both passages are from the same writer.

However we know that the Luke 11 passage was in Marcion's Gospel; see Tertullian Against Marcion
A (certain) mother of the company exclaims, 'Blessed is the womb that bare You, and the paps which You have sucked;' but the Lord said, 'Yea, rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.' Now He had in precisely similar terms rejected His mother or His brethren, while preferring those who heard and obeyed God. His mother, however, was not here present with Him. On that former occasion, therefore, He had not denied that He was her son by birth. On hearing this (salutation) the second time, He the second time transferred, as He had done before, the blessedness to His disciples from the womb and the paps of His mother, from whom, however, unless He had in her (a real mother) He could not have transferred it.
We also know that Marcion's Gospel lacked Elizabeth's salutation of Mary (along with the rest of chapters 1 and 2).

If, as I have suggested, both passages are from the same writer, then Marcion's Gospel, which has one but not the other, appears to be a secondary abbreviation of the original Gospel.

Andrew Criddle

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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by Secret Alias » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:33 pm

In all probability both passages are from the same writer.
Why?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by perseusomega9 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:06 pm

I dont see why the Luke 11 passage requires the nativity reference to have been there.

Ulan
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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by Ulan » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:51 pm

The style is completely different if you compare the whimsical story from the beginning with the rather harsh statement from Lk11. There may also be a different attitude towards the bodily involved.

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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:23 am

This would seem a singular example of marcionite antithesis created by the same Luke against Marcion:

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.” 27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

There are three parallels in both the stories:
1) incipit by Jesus and Mary, respectively
2) the woman and Elizabeth start to talk
3) their words are very similar and refer to the birth from the mother's womb.


But the parallelism is soon broken in Luke 11 by that ''But'' by Jesus:
On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
...since we don't have a Mary who corrected Elizabeth.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by Giuseppe » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:54 am

It is curious what preceded Luke 11:27-28 in Marcion:
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out from the man,
he goeth through waterless places, seeking rest;
and finding none, he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he,
and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself;
and they enter in, and dwell there:
and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
This seems a Gnostic poster: the matter is so evil per se, that the body of the man is seen as the natural house of the demon of his own right.

The exclamation of the woman in Luke 11:27-28 seems a pale attempt to insinuate the goodness of the human body and of biological birth. But Jesus denies implicitly that presumed goodness by repeating that the only goodness is only acquired by faith from the good God.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

andrewcriddle
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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by andrewcriddle » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:42 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:41 am
I find the following argument interesting, but I'm not sure how strong it is.

There is a deliberate parallelism and contrast between Luke 1:41-45
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”
and Luke 11:27-28
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
In all probability both passages are from the same writer.

However we know that the Luke 11 passage was in Marcion's Gospel; see Tertullian Against Marcion
A (certain) mother of the company exclaims, 'Blessed is the womb that bare You, and the paps which You have sucked;' but the Lord said, 'Yea, rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.' Now He had in precisely similar terms rejected His mother or His brethren, while preferring those who heard and obeyed God. His mother, however, was not here present with Him. On that former occasion, therefore, He had not denied that He was her son by birth. On hearing this (salutation) the second time, He the second time transferred, as He had done before, the blessedness to His disciples from the womb and the paps of His mother, from whom, however, unless He had in her (a real mother) He could not have transferred it.
We also know that Marcion's Gospel lacked Elizabeth's salutation of Mary (along with the rest of chapters 1 and 2).

If, as I have suggested, both passages are from the same writer, then Marcion's Gospel, which has one but not the other, appears to be a secondary abbreviation of the original Gospel.

Andrew Criddle
I'm adding this to clarify. I am convinced that there is a deliberate parallelism

The beginning of the passage in Luke 1 has And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! " which parallels one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”

The end of the passage in Luke 1 has And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord. which parallels On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it. Both emphasise faithful discipleship over physical motherhood.

What is less clear is whether this deliberate parallelism requires common authorship.

Andrew Criddle

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Re: Priority of Luke over Marcion's Gospel

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:46 pm

Ulan wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:51 pm
The style is completely different if you compare the whimsical story from the beginning with the rather harsh statement from Lk11. There may also be a different attitude towards the bodily involved.
I agree that there is a different attitude. On the other hand, it could be that Luke developed a thought whose final word is Luke 23:29.

28 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’


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