The baptism of John, was it from Demiurge, or of men?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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The baptism of John, was it from Demiurge, or of men?

Post by Giuseppe »

So Mcn = Luke 20:1-8 :
20: 1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days,
as he was teaching the people in the temple,
and announcing the glad tidings,
there came upon him the chief priests and the scribes with the elders,
2 And spake unto him, saying,
Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things?
or who is he that gave thee this authority?
3 And he answered and said unto them,
I will also ask you one word and tell me:
4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying,
If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
6 But if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us:
for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
7 And they answered, that they knew not whence it was.
8 And Jesus said unto them,
Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
If the scribes don't recognize the origin of John prophet of the Demiurge, how could they claim knowledge of the origin of Jesus the Christ of another God?

What they lie about John is paradoxically true about Jesus: they knew not whence Jesus was.

Therefore their answer to Jesus's question is precisely the answer that Jesus would have given them: his origin is ALIEN.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The baptism of John, was it from Demiurge, or of men?

Post by Giuseppe »

Therefore Jesus answers really so to the pharisees:

THE SCRIBES: Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things?
or who is he that gave thee this authority?


JESUS: you cannot know whence my authority comes.

This is very similar to the answer by the Jesus of the Fourth Gospel:
13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”
14 Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.
(John 8)

No wonder that ur-John is a Gnostic Gospel (April De'Conick docet).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The baptism of John, was it from Demiurge, or of men?

Post by Giuseppe »

I wonder: but were the pharisees sincere in their confession of ignorance about the origin of the John's baptism?

So Tertullian:
Christ knew the baptism of John, whence it was. (Luke 20:4) Then why did He ask them, as if He knew not? He knew that the Pharisees would not give Him an answer; then why did He ask in vain? Was it that He might judge them out of their own mouth, or their own heart? Suppose you refer these points to an excuse of the Creator, or to His comparison with Christ; then consider what would have happened if the Pharisees had replied to His question. Suppose their answer to have been, that John's baptism was of men, they would have been immediately stoned to death. (Luke 20:6) Some Marcion, in rivalry to Marcion, would have stood up and said: O most excellent God; how different are his ways from the Creator's! Knowing that men would rush down headlong over it, He placed them actually on the very precipice. For thus do men treat of the Creator respecting His law of the tree. But John's baptism was from heaven. Why, therefore, asks Christ, did you not believe him? (Luke 20:5) He therefore who had wished men to believe John, purposing to censure them because they had not believed him, belonged to Him whose sacrament John was administering. But, at any rate, when He actually met their refusal to say what they thought, with such reprisals as, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things, (Luke 20:8) He returned evil for evil!
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03124.htm

Tertullian assumes already that John's baptism was ''from heaven'' and that therefore it was the correct answer.

But what if the dilemma of the pharisees was really sincere? That dilemma remembers the fear of the Just people in Hell to accept the Christ of the Alien God (when the latter descended in Hell after the death on the cross): was he really the true Christ or only a deception of the creator to tempt them?


So also the pharisees are really afraid of the demiurge's wrath :

1) if they answer that John was an impostor: the demiurge's crowd would have stoned them.

2) If they answer that John was truly a prophet of the demiurge, Jesus would have justified the wrath of the demiurge against them.

Therefore their answer was very sincere: they didn't know the origin of the baptism of John (for fear of the demiurge).

Hence, Jesus is really justified to answer in the same way of the Gnostic Jesus of the Fourth Gospel:
Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
...since they were so prisoners of the fear of their demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: The baptism of John, was it from Demiurge, or of men?

Post by Giuseppe »

the same destiny of the pharisees touched to the right people of the Hell.
“Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.”
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies, I.27.3).

Note the similarity between the answer of Jesus:
Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
and the decision of the Alien God:
he declared that their souls remained in Hades
In both the cases, in virtue of their fear of the Demiurge, both the pharisees and the ''righteous men'' condemn themselves.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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