When was the term "christian" first used?

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spin
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

Post by spin »

steve43 wrote:You are really stretching it here. Of course Nero was successful with this strategy. He remained in power, people became even more afraid of him, and he got to build his Domus Aureas.
I didn't ask you to make it up. Where is the result in the text? Nowhere. So there's no stretch at all. As I said, it's a matter of bias. Staying in power is just your excuse, but power kept one in power, until you didn't have it. That's dictatorship for you. You are complicit in this nonsense. Nero has falsely come down through history as responsible for the fire, though Roman historians these days strongly doubt any connection.

Nero had only recently finished a new palace, the Domus Transitoria, when the fire broke out, so the theory that he deliberately burned down Rome to build a new residence is a farce.
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Re: The result of Nero shifting the blame?

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Spin,

This is an excellent and valid point. The statement "But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order" is the conclusion to the passage. The passage about the Christians seems an add-on. Whoever has added it on has also made an erroneous connection.

Note this: But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report...

There was a "belief" that there was an "order". Does the word "report" in the following line refer to the popular "belief" or the "order." Nero would obviously want to get rid of the "belief" not the "order"(whether he gave it or not).

The add-on says he wanted to get rid of "the report". What report? A popular belief is not "a report". The word "report" seems to refer to the order Nero gave to start the fire. If Nero gave the order, he would not want to get rid of it and if he didn't give the order he couldn't get rid of it. Often, when people add on to something, they do not look at the meaning of the last line, they simply look at the last word and attach the add-on to it. That seems to be the case here. The editor who attached the passage about the Christians was only attached it to the last word in the sentence, not to the thought of Tacitus. That thought is that he tried everyone naturally and supernaturally possible to avoid blame for the fire. The Christian passage should have logically come before the line But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order." Blaming Christians obviously falls under the category "all human efforts".

I would hypothesize that originally the Christian passage described what the emperor Tiberius did to the followers of Isis when he burned the temple of Isis. The editor has simply shifted the passage from its original position and placed in the time of Nero.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin


spin wrote:Let's go back to the final part of the fire narrative, as it now stands in Ann. 15.44. There is a glaring problem I have not discussed before that is overlooked because of reading bias, our reading bias. We are so gulled by the horrid treatment the narrative says that was suffered by the poor christian martyrs.

44. Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the temple and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Tacitus tells us that Nero tried everything, "But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order." Well, it seems, not quite everything. Finally, we are told, he hit on another thing to do "to get rid of the report", he "fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures" on the christians. So far, so good, you might say. He tried everything but nothing worked, so after trying everything he discovered it was not quite everything. He had another trick up his sleeve: he blamed the christians. But the weird thing is that we don't get told whether it was successful or not.

After we learn of the failure with human efforts, with gifts and even with propitiations, these "precautions of human wisdom" being to no avail, we don't learn the result of Nero's shifting the blame. Instead, we learn about what happened to the christians.

Next time I corner you in a bar, look me in the face and tell me if you think the TT is the work of one of the greatest orators in ancient Rome. This is when those who want it to be veracious say, "he must have been having a bad day." That's after the meticulous way he stitched Nero up to take the wrap for the fire with no evidence. :silenced:
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

Post by ficino »

Hello all,

Jay, if you remember who originally made the case that 15.44 originally referred to persecution of the devotees of Isis, and that it's been transposed from an earlier part of the work, I'd be very interested in reading that person's publication.
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Re: The result of Nero shifting the blame?

Post by spin »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Spin,

This is an excellent and valid point. The statement "But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order" is the conclusion to the passage. The passage about the Christians seems an add-on. Whoever has added it on has also made an erroneous connection.

Note this: But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report...

There was a "belief" that there was an "order". Does the word "report" in the following line refer to the popular "belief" or the "order." Nero would obviously want to get rid of the "belief" not the "order"(whether he gave it or not).
The word "report" was the choice of translator and does not contain the modern understanding of the word. The Latin is actually "rumori" and "rumor" is sufficiently close to give the correct idea.
PhilosopherJay wrote:The add-on says he wanted to get rid of "the report". What report? A popular belief is not "a report". The word "report" seems to refer to the order Nero gave to start the fire. If Nero gave the order, he would not want to get rid of it and if he didn't give the order he couldn't get rid of it. Often, when people add on to something, they do not look at the meaning of the last line, they simply look at the last word and attach the add-on to it. That seems to be the case here. The editor who attached the passage about the Christians was only attached it to the last word in the sentence, not to the thought of Tacitus. That thought is that he tried everyone naturally and supernaturally possible to avoid blame for the fire. The Christian passage should have logically come before the line But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order." Blaming Christians obviously falls under the category "all human efforts".
This is the point (#4) I made some years back elsewhere, so I may as well repeat the summary list of problems I have with the TT.
  1. Tacitus says what he wanted to in way of conclusion, "But no human efforts, nor the lavish gifts of the emperor, or the propitiations of the gods, could banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order." Without Tacitus accusing Nero of anything, he leaves the emperor holding the bag for the fire, ie everyone knew he ordered it. But Tacitus, known as one of the greatest orators of his era, immediately changes topic from the involvement of Nero regarding the fire to the horrors of the persecution of christians and loses focus in his attack on Nero by hiding this sharp criticism of Nero with a passage about christians.
  2. It erroneously calls Pontius Pilate a "procurator" when Tacitus is a major source for the fact that procurators weren't given control of provinces before the time of Claudius. (See below.)
  3. It has Nero's gardens being given over to the burning of christians at night in 15.44.5, when the gardens were filled with people made homeless by the fire who were waiting while new dwellings were being built (15.39.2).
  4. It is a passage about something Nero attempted in order to dispel the rumours that he'd started the fire, after Tacitus stated that none of his efforts could dispel the rumours.
  5. Tacitus, known as one of the greatest orators of his era, writes a passage that blames the christians for something, but is unclear as to what it was that they pleaded guilty of.
  6. The style of the passage wildly does not reflect Tacitus's renowned style of reserve and understatement.
  7. The passage is functionally a martyrdom story outlining how awfully the christians were treated--so badly that passers by could feel pity (this is in the city where people went to the amphitheatre to watch people being torn apart by wild animals for entertainment). Arguing that the picture was not favorable to christians, is merely an accusation that a christian interpolator was incapable of trying to fit into the style of the original writer.
I would have to argue each point as they are just dot points here. I argued the procurator issue in the link above. (For some reason Richard Carrier has written a few strange defenses of the use of "procurator" here.) But in the current thread I add a further two problems, the lack of outcome for blaming the christians and the tie from the orders at the end of #38 with the order in #44.
Last edited by spin on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

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ficino wrote: Jay, if you remember who originally made the case that 15.44 originally referred to persecution of the devotees of Isis, and that it's been transposed from an earlier part of the work, I'd be very interested in reading that person's publication.
Since I brought it up initially, I figured it was my job to dig up the reference.

Here it is: The Great Fire of Rome: The Fall of the Emperor Nero and His City by Stephen Dando-Collins. Dando-Collins notes that several details of the persecution imply Isis followers were the victims rather than Christians (fire played a role in Isaic rituals, and a priest dressed as Anubis [i.e. a dog-deity] for a major yearly Isis festival). He also shows that Nero had previously been involved in the cult but had rejected it, that it was subject to derision and mockery by prominent Romans of the day, that it had previously been banned in Rome at various times, and that the cult went into decline from the time of Nero until the Flavians rehabilitated it.
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

Post by spin »

Tenorikuma wrote:Since I brought it up initially, I figured it was my job to dig up the reference.

Here it is: The Great Fire of Rome: The Fall of the Emperor Nero and His City by Stephen Dando-Collins.
It would be best if you provide a fuller reference, as I seem to remember you talking about JSTOR, which usually supplies journal articles.

The Great Fire of Rome: The Fall of the Emperor Nero and His City
Stephen Dando-Collins
Da Capo Press
2010

Perhaps, you were referring to a review of this book. JSTOR provides different data to different people depending on the organization through which you connect.
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

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Sorry, the JSTOR remark was a separate thing. I remember doing a search last year and finding a few papers on the passage's Latin difficulties. The only one I have saved to my computer is F.W. Clayton, "Tacitus and Nero's Persecution of the Christians", The Classical Quarterly 41 (3-4):81- (1947). (Clayton's conclusion was that Tacitus was being deliberately vague by including contradictions in his account.)

I don't have time at the moment to do my searches again. (I don't even recall if it was just JSTOR, or SAGE as well.)
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

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Tenorikuma wrote:Sorry, the JSTOR remark was a separate thing...
:scratch: OK, thanks. I can stop scratching.
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

Post by ficino »

You can get a goodly chunk of Dando-Collins' book by googling it. He discusses the Isis hypothesis on 9-14 and develops it into an extended account on 107-110:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6Pu7QW ... is&f=false

His reconstruction gives the passage more credibility than the passage now has with "christianos." But the hypothesis that the entire passage is a later addition also deserves attention, as has been pointed out earlier on this thread.

For some reason, I can't access L'Annee Philologique right now, but JSTOR does not show any reviews of Dando-Collins' book that I can see. It looks like a popular, not a scholarly, book, and I see that the author has written on topics outside the field of ancient history.

On JSTOR is this: Paul Keresztes, "Nero, the Christians and the Jews in Tacitus and Clement of Rome," Latomus , T. 43, Fasc. 2 (AVRIL-JUIN 1984) , pp. 404-413. Keresztes thinks that Tacitus is right to record Neronian persecution of Christians but wrong to connect it to the fire. Based on Eusebius' date of a Neronian persecution of Christians in 68, K. thinks that it was instigated then by Jews who had the emperor's ear. Keresztes seems to know nothing of arguments of such as Wm. Benjamin Smith that the passage is a later interpolation, although K. does -- independently of Smith et al. -- use the silence of Christian sources to support his thesis that there was no persecution of Christians in connection with the fire.
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Re: When was the term "christian" first used?

Post by Eric »

stephan happy huller wrote:Getting back to the original point of the thread, I am not sure whether a second century writer can be used to firmly date collective names in another period. For instance we might speak of 'Renaissance writers,' 'Impressionists' or any number of groups whose name was established after the group in question to describe the original group. I don't know if these are good examples. Let me think of one. Well, let's say, up until recently native Americans were called 'Indians' even when describing their culture before Colombus. We know that they didn't call themselves 'Indians' but a historian attempting to describe their ways before the appearance of Europeans would probably have described this or that 'Indian' tribe with respect to their list of kings even though the name clearly did not pre-date Colombus.
Good analogy. In fact, with that, one could even get more detailed and prove that Indians never existed...in the real world.
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