Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by DCHindley » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 am

Guiseppe wrote: Why are these waters ''stagnant'' ?
Maybe the cropland is watered by a spring, but if the town is along the shores of the Lake of Galilee, the lake's waters might be stagnant, especially in the marshes.

For a while I lived in Florida along the Indian Rivers and the Banana River, both of which were salt water estuaries where I lived, and the stench was sometimes unbearable. The "Sea" of Galilee is not salt water, but an inland lake. Such lakes in the US, especially in our Western half, often have pretty stagnant waters with all sorts of dead fishes and clumps of algae and seaweed washing ashore. I am not referring to the Salt Lake in Utah, either, which does not have dead fish (they cannot tolerate the salt concentration, so none live there) but it does have "brine shrimp" and IIRC, seaweed of some kind, by the bucket.

DCH (back to work, boss!)

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8308
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:38 am

DCHindley wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 am
Guiseppe wrote: Why are these waters ''stagnant'' ?
Maybe the cropland is watered by a spring, but if the town is along the shores of the Lake of Galilee, the lake's waters might be stagnant, especially in the marshes.
Can we know that the ancient Capernaum was along the shores of the Lake of Galilee? Or don't we know even that?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by DCHindley » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:05 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:38 am
DCHindley wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 am
Guiseppe wrote: Why are these waters ''stagnant'' ?
Maybe the cropland is watered by a spring, but if the town is along the shores of the Lake of Galilee, the lake's waters might be stagnant, especially in the marshes.
Can we know that the ancient Capernaum was along the shores of the Lake of Galilee? Or don't we know even that?
Hey, that's where everybody places it, probably because the Gospels speak of it as somewhere along the shore. However, whether we consider them Christian propaganda or not, they are still historical sources. Their *value* as historical sources is another matter.

Josephus, you will note, says that it is "the most fertile fountain" that the locals called "Capernaum" (Κεφαρνωκὸν, War 3.519). Also, in Life 1.403, he notes that when he was wounded battling Roman forces near Julias (north of Sea of Galilee) he was carried to "a village (κώμην) named Cepharnome, or Capernaum." There is really only mention of "Κεφαρνωκὸν" in the Greek text from Life, so "or Capernaum" was a comment by translator Whiston meant to equate this village with the one named Καφαρναοὺμ, which Luke 4:31 calls "a city (πόλιν) of Galilee."

I wonder if a village of Cepharnome was later transformed into king Antipas' capital city of Tiberias? This is a stretch, but might explain the upgrade.

Still, evidence of overstatement (calling a village a city) is not evidence for non-existence (I think :scratch:). Do you have evidence to the contrary?

DCH

User avatar
spin
Posts: 2075
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by spin » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:31 pm

Just a small quibble: we are not dealing with a "fountain", but a source for running water, ie from the ground, that we would normally call a spring.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8308
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:41 pm

DCHindley wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:05 pm
Still, evidence of overstatement (calling a village a city) is not evidence for non-existence (I think :scratch:). Do you have evidence to the contrary?
I never meant to deny the existence of Capernaum. My interest is only to know the theological/symbolical/allegorical reason why just ''Capernaum' appeared in the incipit of the Gospel of Marcion as the place of the descending of the spirit Jesus from heaven.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by DCHindley » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:24 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:41 pm
DCHindley wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:05 pm
Still, evidence of overstatement (calling a village a city) is not evidence for non-existence (I think :scratch:). Do you have evidence to the contrary?
I never meant to deny the existence of Capernaum. My interest is only to know the theological/symbolical/allegorical reason why just ''Capernaum' appeared in the incipit of the Gospel of Marcion as the place of the descending of the spirit Jesus from heaven.
It had appeared to me that you were questioning Capernaum's existence as a real city (er ... village?) in order to make it more credible that it's use here was to convey a symbolic meaning of some kind.

I really don't see a reason to go that direction, although I'll admit that Gnostics managed to read a good deal of symbolism into the gospels, possibly a little later than when I'd date the gospels to (early 2nd century CE). IMHO, the Christian Gnostics seem to have flourished in the mid to later 2nd century CE).

DCH

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8308
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 am

DCHindley wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:24 pm
I really don't see a reason to go that direction, although I'll admit that Gnostics managed to read a good deal of symbolism into the gospels, possibly a little later than when I'd date the gospels to (early 2nd century CE). IMHO, the Christian Gnostics seem to have flourished in the mid to later 2nd century CE).
It is not a coincidence the following series of ''coincidences' about Capernaum:

1) water = death for Gnostics
2) Capernaum = city near waters (see Josephus)
3) Heracleon who said that Capernaum allegorizes the kingdom of death.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 6321
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by MrMacSon » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:00 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 am

1) water = death for Gnostics
.
Could that have anything to do with fishing - saving the gnostic-gentiles from death??

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8308
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:24 am

DCHindley wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:24 pm
, possibly a little later than when I'd date the gospels to (early 2nd century CE). IMHO, the Christian Gnostics seem to have flourished in the mid to later 2nd century CE).
I think that the birth of Christian gnosticism post-dates the Kitos War and that the Earliest Gospel was written by a Gnostic, probably Marcion himself. Marcion invented the "earthly" Jesus.
MrMacSon wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:00 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:52 am

1) water = death for Gnostics
.
Could that have anything to do with fishing - saving the gnostic-gentiles from death??
I think you are right in this conjecture. But to limit to only what is probable, surely it is the theological allusion, behind the descending to Capernaum (see posts above) to the archontic territory of the original pre-70 Christian myth.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 8308
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:49 am

Heracleon himself makes more explicit the allegory 'Capernaum'='archontic territory' by explaining:
Fragment 40, on John 4:46-53 (In John 4:46, “So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official whose child was ill.) The official was the Craftsman, for he himself ruled like a king over those under him. Because his domain is small and transitory, he was called an “official,” like a petty princeling who is set over a small kingdom by the universal king. The “child” “in Capernaun” is one who is in the lower part of the Middle (i.e. of animate substance), which lies near the sea, that is, which is linked with matter. The child’s proper person was sick, that is, in a condition not in accordance with the child’s proper nature, in ignorance and sins
Therefore the Case is Made for Capernaum being at the incipit of the Gospel of Marcion uniquely to reflect the celestial event of the descending of the angel Jesus in the archontic territory, as from original Christ Myth.

Note also that the official/Craftsman of John 4 is a figure very much similar to Jairus in Mark (since he asked for help to Jesus), probably the allegory of Demiurge himself, also.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Post Reply