Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:28 pm

3:1/4:31 In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar,
Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea,
Jesus descended [out of heaven] into Capernaum, a city in Galilee,
and was teaching [in the synagogue] on the Sabbath days;
And they were astonished at his doctrine,

Why Capernaum?
Heracleon also said that when Jesus goes down to Capernaum (John 2.12), that means — for such is the meaning of the city’s name — that he is descending into the nether regions of the Cosmos. This meaning is retained in French, in which the word “capharnaüm” refers a place of chaos and debauchery, according to [French lexicographer] Littré; and the earliest reference to this city is in the New Testament. From there, Jesus returns to Jerusalem — in other words, from the physical realm to an intermediate region where the psychics live. There is nothing historical about this symbolic Jerusalem.
(Georges Ory, Analysis of Christian Origins, 19)

It seems that all the original Gospel is summarized in that single line. The ''nether regions'' could only be the sub-lunary territory -- between the earth and the moon -- in the original myth.

This is a strong clue that the Marcionite incipit -- and hence the relative Gospel -- was before the our canonical gospels.

The first thing that you would (expect to hear) say about an angel is that he descended in nether regions.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

StephenGoranson
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by StephenGoranson » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:01 am

Capernaum--that is, the village of Nahum--is a pretty physical place, if you go there, physically.

Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:12 am

StephenGoranson wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:01 am
Capernaum--that is, the village of Nahum--is a pretty physical place, if you go there, physically.
Ory isn't questioning the existence of the town (it doesn't matter if it existed or not), but his ethymology.

And it seems that Capernaum means ''the nether'' (regions) according to the Gnostic Heracleon, the oldest commentator of the New Testament.

Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:15 am

I wonder why we don't realize it before:
Fragment 11, on John 2:12 (In John 2:12, “After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days.”) The words, "After this he went down to Capernaum," indicate the beginning of a new dispensation, for "he went down" is not said idly. Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended. And since the place was alien to him, he is not reported either to have done anything or said anything in it.
http://gnosis.org/library/fragh.htm

This fact alone proves the priority of the Marcion's Gospel over all the other Gospels.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:29 am

This remembers the place where the dying-and-rising god Attis went down, according to Emperor Julian:
But the fable, desirous to signify this, says, that the mother of the gods exhorted Attis to take care of himself, and neither depart any where else, nor be captivated with any other. but Attis, departing from the mother of the gods, descended even to the very extremity of matter.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/toj/toj04.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:43 am

But where Typhon falls in and touches upon her extreme parts, [...] For which reason the fable makes Typhon to be married to Nephthys, and Osiris to have accompanied with her by stealth. For the utmost and most extreme parts of matter, which they call Nephthys and the end, is mostly under the power of the destructive faculty;
(Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, 59)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:45 am

Therefore Earl Doherty was correct: Jesus died in ''the utmost and most extreme parts of matter'', i.e. outer space.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:07 am

But first you have to explain why Heracleon thinks it means what he says it means? What's the basis to his claim? Etymology?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:11 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:28 pm
Why Capernaum?
Heracleon also said that when Jesus goes down to Capernaum (John 2.12), that means — for such is the meaning of the city’s name — that he is descending into the nether regions of the Cosmos. This meaning is retained in French, in which the word “capharnaüm” refers a place of chaos and debauchery, according to [French lexicographer] Littré; and the earliest reference to this city is in the New Testament. From there, Jesus returns to Jerusalem — in other words, from the physical realm to an intermediate region where the psychics live. There is nothing historical about this symbolic Jerusalem.
(Georges Ory, Analysis of Christian Origins, 19
Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:15 am
I wonder why we don't realize it before:
Fragment 11, on John 2:12 (In John 2:12, “After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days.”) The words, "After this he went down to Capernaum," indicate the beginning of a new dispensation, for "he went down" is not said idly. Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended. And since the place was alien to him, he is not reported either to have done anything or said anything in it.
http://gnosis.org/library/fragh.htm
We don't realize it before because it isn't "the meaning of the city’s name". Heracleon's gnostic point is not the name of the village, but the verb "coming down".

Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:32 am

Heracleon seems quite clear about his referring to the name of the village:
Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended
to which the use of the verb ''to descend'' is only a consequence and a function.

Therefore it is all a question of ethymology of Capernaum.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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