Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

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Giuseppe
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:02 am

Could Jesus himself have given that meaning to Capernaum?

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.
It seems that before these words of Jesus, '''Capernaum'' wanted to reach the heavens, the same sin of the tower of Babel.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:05 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:32 am
Heracleon seems quite clear about his referring to the name of the village:
Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended
to which the use of the verb ''to descend'' is only a consequence and a function.

Therefore it is all a question of ethymology of Capernaum.
Let's hear what Stephan says

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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:38 am

καί φησι τὴν Καφαρναοὺμ σημαίνειν ταῦτα τὰ ἔσχατα τοῦ κόσμου, ταῦτα τὰ ὑλικὰ εἰς ἃ κατῆλθεν· καὶ διὰ τὸ ἀνοίκειον, φησίν, εἶναι τὸν τόπον οὐδὲ πεποιηκώς τι λέγεται ἐν αὐτῇ ἢ λελαληκώς.

Capernaum, he says, means these farthest-out parts of the world, these districts of matter, into which He descended, and because the place was not suitable, he says, He is not reported either to have done anything or said anything in it.

I tend to think that he thought Capernaum signified (= σημαίνειν) these farthest-out parts of the world (ταῦτα τὰ ἔσχατα τοῦ κόσμου). Can't figure out why Heracleon thought this.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:59 am

Here's a question why isn't τὰ ἔσχατα τοῦ κόσμου translated 'the end of the world'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:00 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:32 am
Heracleon seems quite clear about his referring to the name of the village:
Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended
to which the use of the verb ''to descend'' is only a consequence and a function.
No, Kunigunde is right. I was going to give the Greek, but while typing this Kunigunde already supplied it from Migne.

The verb σημαίνω has no necessary connection to etymology; it simply means to signify, indicate, or symbolize. In John 12.32-33, for instance, Jesus uses the image of being lifted up from the earth to signify the manner of his death. Nothing in the etymology of "lifted up from the earth" leads to the manner of his death; the representation is visual in this case.

As Kunigunde said, Heracleon appears to be making Capernaum signify the extreme material portions of the cosmos, not because anything in the name suggests that, but rather because that is where Jesus "descended" (so to speak).

Capernaum probably comes from Kfar Nahum, which means village of Nahum. However, since all Hebrew names mean something, and since Nahum means comfort(er) or consolation/consoler, Capernaum can also be held to mean village of consolation. Kfar, IIUC, has also been held to mean a field in which tents may be pitched (hence the idea of a village), so Origen may not be too far off his rocker when he says earlier in book 10 of his commentary on John that Capernaum means field of consolation. In that instance Origen uses the word ἑρμηνεύω, which is the word one would expect for an etymological explanation.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:04 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:59 am
Here's a question why isn't τὰ ἔσχατα τοῦ κόσμου translated 'the end of the world'
Well, ἔσχατος can mean both "last in time" and "last in space" (among other things). In Acts 13.47 it means last in space, for example.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:06 am

Maybe it has something to do with Matthew 11:23 - 24 "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will descend to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:09 am

Capernaum means field of consolation
כפר while only appearing in the plural in Hebrew writings does mean 'atonement.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Secret Alias
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Secret Alias » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:11 am

I don't think Heracleon is providing an etymology.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:12 am

Secret Alias wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:11 am
I don't think Heracleon is providing an etymology.
I agree.
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