Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

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MrMacSon
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by MrMacSon » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:28 pm

Why Capernaum?
Heracleon also said that when Jesus goes down to Capernaum (John 2.12), that means — for such is the meaning of the city’s name — that he is descending into the nether regions of the Cosmos. This meaning is retained in French, in which the word “capharnaüm” refers a place of chaos and debauchery, according to [French lexicographer] Littré; and the earliest reference to this city is in the New Testament. From there, Jesus returns to Jerusalem — in other words, from the physical realm to an intermediate region where the psychics live. There is nothing historical about this symbolic Jerusalem.
(Georges Ory, Analysis of Christian Origins, 19
Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:15 am

I wonder why we don't realize it before:
Fragment 11, on John 2:12 (In John 2:12, “After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days.”) The words, "After this he went down to Capernaum," indicate the beginning of a new dispensation, for "he went down" is not said idly. Capernaum, means these farthest-out parts of the world, the material realm into which he descended. And since the place was alien to him, he is not reported either to have done anything or said anything in it.
http://gnosis.org/library/fragh.htm
Kunigunde's point about Heracleon's point seems key -
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:11 am

We don't realize it before because it isn't "the meaning of the city’s name".

Heracleon's gnostic point is not the name of the village, but the verb "coming down".

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:46 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:00 am


As Kunigunde said, Heracleon appears to be making Capernaum signify the extreme material portions of the cosmos, not because anything in the name suggests that, but rather because that is where Jesus "descended" (so to speak).
Mmm... I would be not so rapid in this so drastic conclusion. You say what is the etymology of Capernaum shortly after:
Capernaum probably comes from Kfar Nahum, which means village of Nahum. However, since all Hebrew names mean something, and since Nahum means comfort(er) or consolation/consoler, Capernaum can also be held to mean village of consolation.
Village of the conforter: this remembers me what Couchoud said about the first epistle of John.

The Epistle shows itself to be earlier than the Gospel, because the Parousia (ii. 28) is still taught, whereas in the Gospel it is no longer expected, and because the Paraclete in the Epistle is Jesus himself, whereas in the Gospel the Paraclete is a sort of double of Jesus, the Spirit which is to be sent and which, in practice, takes the place of the Son of Man whose Coming was formerly hoped for. It is evident, then, that between the writing of the Epistle and that of the Gospel the urgent expectation of the Revelation had lapsed.

(The Creation of Christ, p. 226, my bold)

Capernaum means the place where the Paraclete had to arrive. The ''village of the Paraclete''. This does allude at least partially to the idea expressed by Heracleon. At least more than to idea of what the Gospel Jesus did particularly in Capernaum and only there (the particular exorcism of someone).

What I am saying is that, even so, Capernaum is more expected in the incipit of a Gospel (alluding to the general goal of Jesus: being a Paraclete) than as particular name of a particular place of a particular episode where Jesus did a particular action.

Therefore I repeat what I said before: the presence of Capernaum in the incipit of Mcn alone proves the Marcionite priority.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:59 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:46 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:00 am


As Kunigunde said, Heracleon appears to be making Capernaum signify the extreme material portions of the cosmos, not because anything in the name suggests that, but rather because that is where Jesus "descended" (so to speak).
Mmm... I would be not so rapid in this so drastic conclusion.
And yet, not one bit of your post contests it. You instead attempt to salvage your main point from a different etymology than the one purportedly given in the text, rendering completely moot any suggestion that Heracleon thought that Capernaum meant, in an etymological sense, "extreme parts of the world" or some such.

Your overall point concerning Marcionite priority was never my concern here. You are free to beat that donkey all you wish, and I will not interfere.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:10 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:59 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:46 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:00 am


As Kunigunde said, Heracleon appears to be making Capernaum signify the extreme material portions of the cosmos, not because anything in the name suggests that, but rather because that is where Jesus "descended" (so to speak).
Mmm... I would be not so rapid in this so drastic conclusion.
And yet, not one bit of your post contests it. You instead attempt to salvage your main point from a different etymology than the one purportedly given in the text, rendering completely moot any suggestion that Heracleon thought that Capernaum meant, in an etymological sense, "extreme parts of the world" or some such.
I don't understand fully your point above. On the one hand, it seems that you are saying that Heracleon has not in mind an etymology but only what for him derived from the use of the verb descending, while on the other hand you are saying that Heracleon wanted to give an etymology for Capernaum. Is this what are you saying ?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:35 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:10 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:59 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:46 am
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:00 am


As Kunigunde said, Heracleon appears to be making Capernaum signify the extreme material portions of the cosmos, not because anything in the name suggests that, but rather because that is where Jesus "descended" (so to speak).
Mmm... I would be not so rapid in this so drastic conclusion.
And yet, not one bit of your post contests it. You instead attempt to salvage your main point from a different etymology than the one purportedly given in the text, rendering completely moot any suggestion that Heracleon thought that Capernaum meant, in an etymological sense, "extreme parts of the world" or some such.
I don't understand fully your point above. On the one hand, it seems that you are saying that Heracleon has not in mind an etymology but only what for him derived from the use of the verb descending, while on the other hand you are saying that Heracleon wanted to give an etymology for Capernaum. Is this what are you saying ?
No. Heracleon is not using etymology at all. He is using the descent (which happens to be to Capernaum) to mean or symbolize the descent of the savior. You are the one introducing etymology, and you have done it twice now, with two different etymologies, the second of which cannot even be misconstrued out of the text in the same way you misconstrued the first one.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:39 am

In other words, Giuseppe, when you use the English translation to manufacture the idea that Heracleon thought Capernaum (etymologically) meant "the furthest reaches of the world" or whatnot, Kunigunde can cite the Greek and point out that this is not a necessary or even a likely meaning for Heracleon's words. But, when you merely posit, as sheer guesswork, that Heracleon was influenced by an actually possible or even probable etymology for Capernaum ("village of consolation"), despite that etymology not being part of the text we are examining (not even as a misreading of the English translation), well, arguing against such mindreading is like trying to shoot a vapor with an arrow, and every bit as unnecessary.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:44 am

I suspect that you are assuming too much about Heracleon. You seem to think that he was historicist and that only for love of metaphor he imagined the reference to the remote ends of the earth, etc.

Frankly, I don't think so. Heracleon could be a mythicist when he said these words, since he is implying clearly that Jesus didn't go to a physical place named Capernaum, but descended in the sub-lunary realm. He is interpreting what is at least for him only an allegory. Jesus couldn't descend in two different places (a village in Galilee and in the sublunary realm) during the same descending.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:58 am

My point is that, if Heracleon was historicist, then he had to interpret etymologically Capernaum when he wrote these words. He couldn't do otherwise.

If Heracleon was mythicist, he could say what he said without no reference to any etymology.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:22 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:44 am
I suspect that you are assuming too much about Heracleon. You seem to think that he was historicist and that only for love of metaphor he imagined the reference to the remote ends of the earth, etc.
Whaaat? I am not sure I even have an opinion yet as to Heracleon's views on that topic. And they certainly played no part in my agreement with Kunigunde, which agreement is simply the inevitable result of a straightforward reading of an ordinary Greek sentence. My claim is no less and no more than that Heracleon, according to how he is cited by Origen, was not using the etymology of Capernaum as part of his interpretation of the passage at hand. Fin.
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Re: Capernaum and Marcionite Priority

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:38 am

Ok. But the perplexity remains. Do you say the same thing assuming that for absurd the etymology of Capernaum means really "lower regions" ? I doubt.
My point is that only because you know a priori from other sources that Capernaum doesn't mean "lower regions" you conclude that etymology didn't matter to Heracleon.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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